Best way to start

Now I know some HTML however I usually use Dreamweaver to build the basic website and edit it, basically because it is easy.

I know C and C++ but I am looking to learn the following languages:

HTML (in more depth)
Perl
PHP
CGI

So what is the easiest way to start. I want to make the learning processes as easy as possible starting as basically as possible.

The C programming learing was done at uni and they made it really simple. Basically I am willing to work hard at it but I want to be confedent in these languages in about 6-8 months.


I would like top be directed to the best way to doing this.

Thanks
Julian

Sorry to disappoint you - they haven't taught you a damn thing about programming in uni. Probably the smartest thing to do is to forget evertything they told you and start all over again from scratch.

Ok, now to the point. Devshed here has fine series for beginners for both php and perl. You don't really need to know depths of html to learn those two. You do need to have http server (apache) and sql database (mysql/postgresql) if you're anywhere near serious about learning. Forums here is a great place to get answers to almost any question you can think of, in all perl php and html, so feel free to ask (after you have searched and read the rules).

6-8 months is a risky period - by then you will grasp basics of both languages and you will think you have mastered them. That's what so risky about it. In reality there is always much more you don't know then you do know. You can't really 'learn' any web development language without going into database administration, basiscs of apache config, and sooner or later, *nix using and administrating. That's when the real fun begins, so sorry again - 7 months is just top of the iceberg.

Yeah. That did sound too encouraging, did it? I guess bottom line is that if you really want to do this then go ahead learn and have fun while doing so, but if you're in it just because "IT people get more money" then don't waste your time. This is more then a career, this is lifestyle.

edit: can't stress enough "Forums here is a great place to get answers to almost any question you can think of" part...

I can't speak for the other people on this site, but it was quite helpful to me to learn C then Perl, then PHP. I didn't get into database work until around the time I picked up PHP.

I guess PHP first since it includes languages construct from others such as C, PERL and more.

And the tutorials in this site are great!

Yeah thanks guys, I did learn more about learning C languages at Uni, the learning by doing part was the best.

Yeah 6-8 months is a short time period but I am not looking to further my career, I am doing it for fun. I want to be able to have mastered the basics within 6-8 months and feel able to program in the languages.

My main point is that some books make it so boring to learn the language and slow and painful.


I am just looking to further my programming knowelge thats it, I want to be able to make a decent website.

I should mention I ran a computer network for several years and now want to start my own webserver:

My webserver, My site, My rules.

At Uni I am doing Electronics Engineering, programming is not what I gonna do for a job nor is IT, I want to go into industry but I just wanna have fun.

Well... if this is true you've got the right attitude and it should help shore up Al's "lifestyle" thing-a-ma-jig.

I have to disagree with riv. I think you should eventually pick up PHP, but, that's the thing. "Pick it up". That means "learn a 'real' language (preparing to dodge flamethrowers for that comment, I am) first, then figure out PHP on your own based on what you knew before". PHP is a nice language, but it can oversimplify things - hiding its more complex structures from PHP newbies and helping to dim the understanding of underlying programming principles in the process. This can make learning the more advanced topics of PHP difficult if the programmer relies to heavy on PHP's easy going 'personality'... Personally, I'd reccomend you take one of two routes:

Fairly Safe Route

Learn C/C++ (for real.. not pre-canned, processed, and warmed-over theory taught in schools) then Perl then whatever you want. NOT on a windoze system. Pop on a Linux or BSD distro to do it. I reccomend Red Hat to start, then move into a Slackware or *BSD when you're comfortable with the basics - just be sure you're using mostly command line and not relying too much on Red Hat's dumbed down interfaces (read: use Red Hat's dumb stuff for basic drudge work like typing up text, surfing, email, etc. Use the good old command line for adminstrative and development tasks so you don't start relying on distro-specific tools). The benefit of this route is that the C/C++ work will help ground you in technique and syntax tha a lot of other languages "lifted" to some extent. Perl, then, will give you a good language to move into CGI with and add a few more syntatic elements. From there, PHP, Python, Ruby, etc. should be a breeze to pick up without anything more than a good tutorial or manual and some free time.

Seriously Masochistic Route

This is what I did. Learn Perl first. The benefit here is that you start learning with a powerful language that lets you get going early. The problem is it 1) Spoils you 2) Doesn't care if you hang yourself with your own rope (something like that is actually one of its tenets). From here you may have some difficulty moving to more complex C/C++ routines and constructs, but PHP, Python, etc. will still be a breeze. With a minimal extra effort you will be able to pick up the C/C++ concepts, however. Problem is, you will make a LOT of mistakes this way - so beware.

Also, search each of the forums you're interested in (i.e. perl - search the perl forum) and search for things like "books", "book recommendation", "tutorials", "learn", etc. to pull up other "how do I get started" type threads related specifically to the topic you're looking for (people frequently come in and ask for book and/or getting started recommendations without searching despite the fact it's covered frequently in each forum.. don't be like them ).

At any rate, you need (alright - you don't NEED... but know that I mean this: If you try to use Windoze you will miss out on a LOT of important system interaction, programs, and features that other programmers will laugh at you for. You will learn poor programming practices. Your programs will dye their hair blue, stay out till 6 am, and crash the computer. You will start watching Jerry Springer reruns.) a Unix-variant like Linux or BSD. You need an HTTP server like Apache (see Al's post), you need a Sql Database (see Al's post), you probably should get some books (see the Search suggestion above and you're local bookstore) to learn, or, at least for reference, and you need to start using Google if you don't already.

Al -

We make big bucks? Huh? Nobody ever told ME that! Somebody been holding out on me here!

Grr, time to kill!!

Just kidding, but i'm wondering what's the thing with schools that they don't show since they use the same books than at the library?! I can understand for a PHP coder like me that says "Look! It's EZ!" but besides that I don't see. Would you mind elaborating.

P.S. - I know my first sentence is ackward, sorry.

oppps, I meant, I dont wanna go into industry I just wanna have some fun, sorry for the typo......



The way uni teaches the programming is very different from the way it was taught in schools. It actually made learning fun. We usually use windows 98 to edit the code and use a GCC on the unix terminal through SSH. Makefiles etc are complex but they do make some sense.

Personally: I edit my code in Windows 2k and telnet in to use the GCC. I mean we are learning more and more but within 30 weeks we were doing on to OOP. Which is complex but fun. They stopped for the moment but next semester we go back on to learning C/C++.

But we also get taught hardware description languages and assembler this year.


What you say makes sense, personally I dont like red hat linux, I prefer SUSE but SUSE is easier for the linux beginner.

Also if I am gonna set up my own webserver you think I am gonna use Windows? IIS is badly unstable so I will be using Linux/BSD.

Thanks for your comments, if I seem cocky etc I dont mean to be, I am looking upto people who have done much more learning than me. Thanks.......

(LOL) I like this guy's attitude!

Riv - Yea... what you said (totally lost on that comment - responding based on my own personal interpretation of that totally incoherent thought ) If you're asking why PHP isn't taught at most schools :

1. It's somewhat of a new fad (really - I think PHP is a lovely language for web scripting, but, I'm just not ready to let go of perl for that just yet). The way I see it in my perl-soaked world - PHP4 is now at the point where Perl started to take off mainstream (perl 4, coincidentally).
2. It's not Microsoft. (A lot of schools get money from big comps - Microsoft in particular gives out a TON of cash to schools around the country - they're very well known for their monetary donations to schools (oddly enough - most of those donations make no stipulation as to what the school does with that money [except that it's technology purchases being made], so sometimes it winds up paying for competing technologies).
3. Most schools don't have web dev cirriculums, or, if they do, they aren't well recognized or accredited.

My JS prof let slip that the reason our school is pushing XP and .NET over Unix/Cross-Platform languages is because they get a lot of money from Microsoft to do it - no other reason. Don't trust your school to do what's right for you - you need to take what they tell you with a fairly large grain of salt sometimes. This goes for other things, not just IT and Programming: Medicine, Psychology, Law, etc. are all subject to this sort of forced advertising as well.

Hoolio's school seems like they're going a good route for C/C++ though. Just my personal opinion but - ditch windows for everything but gaming and do all your dev/administration work on *nix or BSD. That's what I did and I've been happy with Windoze ever since (ever notice how games are often the most stable thing on that OS? )

Yeah, I may well swtich over to a linux/windows dual boot. The main problem I have atm is I have a laptop and I would like to keep it as is, hwoever I am building a kickass computer which will end up being a webserver.

Anyway I am at a University(or college as you may call it) they are not sponsored by microsoft and some of the guys teaching us have been programming in C/C++ all their lives, so these guys really know how to program, not some class room teacher reading a book, it is based on their own experience. The best thing in some way is that most of the lecturers wont even touch C# because they see it as microsoft trying to rule the world. I gonna try and get on the Sun microsystems computer, it is big and powerful and looks fun .

Another reason schools push Microsoft technologies: the teacher's don't know anything else.

One thing to remember about programming teachers, they're teachers first, programmers second (unless they're so bad a programming the only job they could get was teaching). This means most of their time (rightly so) is spent figuring out the best way to teach, not necessarily on finding the best language/platform. They'll teach what they know and what they're familiar with.

>>if this is true you've got the right attitude and it should help shore up Al's "lifestyle" thing-a-ma-jig.
Yeah, I knew my post wouldn't sound too encouraging...although I think I made it sounds even worse then I planned. Oh well.

>>We make big bucks? Huh? Nobody ever told ME that!
>>Somebody been holding out on me here!
Well, I'm in that "nobody told me" list too, so don't worry. It's just that many people worlwide (speak from experience) have this bizarre idea IT guys are just under ceo's. Of course we all know this is not quite correct, so I meant 'no gold piles here'. BTW, by lifestyle I meant working under pressure, cross-everything compatability and sleepless nights because something doesn't work (sounds like ceo's duties to me). But then again, Hoolio will get enough of those in Electronics Engineering

Btw, ctb, I went with masochistic route in my career, and doing pretty good so far. I guess I'm either seriously sick or very lucky, as I can't really see how that way could work...

>>I am building a kickass computer which will end up being a webserver.
Erm. Here I am with my negative thought again. I wouldn't use a kickass boxen for server - something list 1.5ghz/512ram/160gig hdd will do (with gf3 card which are cheap as dirt nowadays). And keep good stuff for ut2003

Yeah that is about the spec I was gonna use. It will be a dual Proceesor at about 1.2Ghz, with 512MB ram, large hdd and maybe a nice graphics card just incase I get bored.

I do however have about four years of experience runnig a rather large network so I do know a thing of two about running servers. However when it comes to programming it is something that I love doing but I have not really found the best way to learn. I suppose if I had enjoyed programming more I would have done software engineering instead of Electronics Engineering :P.