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    Netscape 4 not loading CSS


    I have had some problems with netscape 4x just not displaying anything CSS. I have my CSS in a seperate CSS file and my guess is that NS4.x doesn't understand

    Code:
    <link rel="stylesheet" href="default.css" type="text/css">
    and therefore, cannot load the sheets. It works in IE of course. Does anyone know how I can get this to work in Netscape 4.x?

    to view it go to any page on www.75th.org or more specificly http://www.75th.org/news3-7-02.asp is where the biggest problem is.

    Thanks much.
    Last edited by Moebius; March 14th, 2002 at 10:25 AM.
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  3. An Ominous Coward
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    I would suspect that it's just 4.0's now infamous implementation scheme for style sheets. I'll take a look at it when I have access to to NS4.0 later today and see if there's something that appears to be in error, but I think from just taking a quick look at it (and the fact it worked fine in IE), that it's NS4.0x that has the problem. At any rate, the LINK tag is valid in NS4.0.
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    I think you have a lot of problems with your basic CSS design and layout.

    First, even in IE6, it looks terrible. Everything overlaps and is unreadable. I don't know what you're developing in, but since about 85% of the people out there are using IE5/5.5/6 for Windows, you should look at your pages using one of these browsers.

    Second, make sure you are testing pages with a screen resolution (not a page size) of 800 x 600 - this is doubly important for CSS-based layouts. Use browser sizer from Apply This software (www.applythis.com).

    Third, do not use such close colors for fonts and backgrounds. In general, dark backgrounds are bad and this is a perfect example of why. In addition to being somewhat harder to read in the first place, they do not degrade gracefully. There are two reasons for this:
    a. if the stylesheet doesn't load... well you know the result
    b. you do not know the gamma of your visitor's monitor - colors will *not* render the same from system to system. Unless you have 12 different hardware/OS configurations to test with, don't do this.
    c. You can quickly make your pages inaccessible to the 1% of the white males who are color blind (percentages are somewhat lower among other races and way lower among women, but I'm guessing that your clientele is pretty heavily white male).

    Finally, it's hard to tell regarding your stylesheet problem - it's possible it's being included, but NS4 just can't handle the styles you're passing - it's terrible for background colors and positioning. You need to post the styles, but first you need to clean the pages up a lot.

    Good luck

    Tom
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    agree with talambert, you have to fix the css/layout

    the page look kind a nice in IE 5.0 liked the design,
    but in Mozilla 0.9.8 it was an total mess
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    Thanks for the replies guys. I think most of the problems you are having are due to two things. Firstly, the

    easiest. You probably have the Text size set to bigger than normal in your browser. And secondly, I think all the

    problems are stemming off of the lack of CSS compatability. I use IE6 with WinXP and it looks fine. Click

    here to see a screenshot of what itlooks like for me.

    Now I think the imediate problem is that Netscape doesn't read the CSS. There must be something I can change in my

    code to fix this. Any ideas?

    To see the CSS file click here.

    I realize there are other problems that follow. Is there a better way to do what I'm trying to do without using

    tables? The layout and design would just get too complicated. I noticed there is a "postition: reletive" attribute

    in CSS. What exactly does that do, how could i use it, or would i want to use it? Is there some way i can make it

    flow like start the next layer after the above layer ends?

    Thanks a lot for all the help.

    Zac Witte
    AKA Moebius
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  11. An Ominous Coward
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    agree with talambert, you have to fix the css/layout
    I'm not having this problem? Currently, I'm viewing it in IE6 at 800x600 and the only thing that I find annoying is that it scrolls off the right edge of the screen. The colors don't look bad to me (any less contrast and they might, but it's fine for my tastes) but maybe that's just the difference in monitors.

    I'll look at it again tomorrow in IE5.5 and NS4.x when I get to work, but I'm still going with NS isn't understanding the <link rel> tag. Test it here at my homework site to see if NS4x is recognizing. If the links change colors when you move the mouse over them but you're not seeing everything in 12pt Verdana (assuming you have the font installed, of course) then I would once again bet it's the browser. The mouseOvers are specified in <STYLE> tags while everything else is in a sheet referenced via a <link> tag. In the meantime you can see the incredibly mind numbing drudge that I have to answer as one of my "required" courses at school here on my way to a programming degree .
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    Zac,

    I just wrote a long reply, and then closed the window by accident. Damn!

    Anyway, as for your immediate problem, I did some futzing with your code.

    1. Netscape inheritance problem. This is part of the font color problem. It should cascade, but it doesn't and needs to be redeclared for each class. This is a particular problem within tables. So to get font colors right, you need a declaration like:

    TABLE, TR, TH, TD {
    color: Silver;
    }

    As for the positioning, these are all CSS-p/CSS2 properties, which NS4 does not support. You are using
    left: 285px; width: 175px; top: 450px; height: 310px

    You will need to convert this to:

    margin: 450px, 0px, 0px, 285px;
    width: 175px;
    height: 310px;

    Your code is full of properties that are not supported by NS4, but I suggest instead of me trying to list them, that you check out the following resources.

    1. Download an evaluation copy of a good style editor:

    TopStyle is one (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/index.asp), not TopStyle.com as I originally wrote before editing.
    Style Master is another (http://www.westciv.com/style_master/)

    At least the first one lets you restrict your style sheets to NS4-friendly properties.

    2. Also, bookmark some good browser compatibility charts. I think the best two are:

    http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...ort/index.html

    http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/index.html

    There are other decent ones at:

    http://www.webreview.com/style/css1/...stergrid.shtml

    http://builder.cnet.com/Authoring/CSS/table.html

    http://www.micropop.com/workshop/browsers.html


    3.Finally, read some good CSS layout tutorials and tips and tricks. There are some really good articles with useful links at

    A List Apart (www.alistapart.com). Go the the Archives or Back Issues section and click on CSS. Check out "A Developer's Journey" or "A Developer's Odyssey" or something like that. It's really good.

    Also, go to Web Reference and read tutorials 19 and 21. I think the URLs are
    http://webreference.com/html/tutorial19/4.html

    http://webreference.com/html/tutorial21/4.html


    4. Last but not least, I think you should really do some reading on usability, regarding the fonts and colors and screen width. A few quick points:

    Yes, the colors are okay on system X, but there are sometimes huge differences caused by different gamma settings, and gamma is almost always different between Mac and PC even if the user leaves the default gamma. Also, we all have good eyes. Older people and people with visual impairments have less ability to discern subtle shades - fonts *must* be high contrast. Trying to look cool and badass is on excuse.

    Yes, I may not be using the font size you expect, but font sizes render differently in different browsers and different OSes by default. Readers may changes these defaults. You can set absolute font sizes in pixels, but users can override your style sheet. Also, setting absolute font sizes violates US code on accessibility, so you can't do this on any publicly funded site (government, public university, etc). People do, but strictly speaking, this is now illegal because it renders your site inaccessible to the visually impaired.

    I would strongly, strongly, strongly suggest that you BUY "Designing Web Usability" by Jakob Nielsen and that you also spend some time doing some reading at

    www.useit.com
    http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/home.html


    Cheers,

    Tom


    PS: option 2 is to just scrap NS4. Look at your logs - how many NS4 users do you actually get?
    Last edited by talambert; March 19th, 2002 at 06:50 PM.
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  15. An Ominous Coward
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    Well.. I checked it here at work in IE 5.5 and the colors on this monitor render it a little too dark, so yes... I'm now with everyone else in saying lighten the fonts some.

    NS4.08 was totally fudged all to hell. I'd say drop support for it and just make people update. It's time to end the madness of NS4x anyway

    Also, I think you need to take 800x600 res into consideration. It's really irritating to have to scroll, and 800x600 resolution is still very common today.

    Other than that I think it looks great!
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    indeed. I am abandoning netscape. I feel so much better now. I'll look more into the font colors.

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