Frustrated

Allow me to share my piece of frustration at the moment.

I was offered an internship to do web development in March. Since I emphasized wanting to work with "the latest technology," I started reading a book on ASP.NET in preparation. Well, come June, I start working, and my company basically tells me "forget it, there is no way you can use ASP.NET". The truth is the majority of our applications are still in ASP. I think we might have some stuff in Java and Perl, but ASP is dominate by far.

So I'm sitting here trying to decide if I should use ASP, Java, or what-not. I have worked with ASP before, but I just think it's "a thing of the past." I mean, ASP.NET is here, it's been out for almost 2 years, and clearly it's the path forward (I don't mean it's going to take over the market, but as far as ASP vs ASP.NET). If I had a choice between ASP and ASP.NET, of course I would want to work with the latter, for tomorrow's sake. 5 years from now, if anyone is working with Microsoft technology, it should be closer to ASP.NET than classic ASP. So, I can write ASP code today, but is it going to get me anywhere tomorrow? For all I know, this may be the LAST time I ever write ASP. I hope, anyway.

So what about Java? It's certainly going to be more difficult to learn, but I believe it will be more useful in years to come. Still, I can't decide what I want to use for this project. My company is clear not THERE yet, and I really don't want to code in something inferior and aging, even though I'm more comfortable with ASP. I want a recruiter to look at my resume and say "wow, you worked with some hot new technology" not "oh, you did something useless."

The funny thing is, all this time I had feared not meeting the company's expectations of the "Latest Technology," when in fact they, like most other companies, is hesitant to upgrade.

(our backend: ORACLE)

Well, I would suggest brushing up on Java and JSP. JSP isn't in nearly as wide of use as PHP and ASP, but it seems to be what the "high-end" people want. I've fiddled with JSP, and, honestly, I liked what I saw of it a great deal. If I had my choice between using JSP, PHP, and ASP, I'd choose JSP in a heartbeat. I'd even choose JSP over Perl, to be honest, if I ever felt a compelling need to mix up my content and my code...

If you're strapped for time, however, you might try pushing PHP. If you are comfortable with another C-derivative language such as Perl, picking up PHP is a breeze. I learned pretty much all the basics in one evening after my in-depth work in Perl, and I was just left to fiddle with implementation details after that.

One final thing to bear in mind... Microsoft intentionally obsoletes its platforms after a certain amount of time to force upgrade purchases from its customers. By the time you have a few years of ASP.NET under your belt to put on a resume, the technology will have been replaced by Microsoft's "latest and greatest" anyway. Odds are that five years from now, JSP, Perl, PHP, etc. will still be around, so if you learn and grow with them, you'll still be doing the latest thing.

I'm with ctb on this one out of your options I'd go with JSP. I think it might be more marketable for larger companies if that's the environment that you're looking to place yourself.

In the end though it depends on who's doing the hiring when you apply to a job. If the beginning screening process just goes to some HR person with no idea of the tech involved then that may remove you from consideration immediately. However if it goes to a tech person who sees you've achieved some significant work in an area related to them, they may be more lenient when you only have little experience with a specific language or API.

Whatever you choose, just make good use of your time. At least you found an internship and you're getting some experience before entering the job market.

-b

Also, though, remember that Sun is pushing hard to get support for multiple scripting languages into Java (http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3805).

Not that this is new, as packages like Rhino, etc... have been available for awhile, and PHP has had Java interaction for years, but the fact that Sun "officially" wants to do this might be good news. I personally like the idea of back-end business logic in Java, but front-end scripting in PHP, or even Javascript (not browser-based Javascript, but server-side Javascript).

Actually, in some ways, Javascript is a more advanced and well-planned language than PHP, and it's a natural choice for scripting over Java.

(Yes, I am aware that originally there was no direct relationship between Java and Javascript, but both tend toward using similar syntax)

That is correct. Now I need to inquire about Java and PHP, which have been around for a while: has there been any major change in the language/syntax structure/model? Any plan to?

Oh yes, indeed: PHP will undergo a major upgrade with version 5.0, which should come out in the next 3 to 6 months, I believe. It will be much more comparable to Java in it's handling of classes and objects, exception handling, etc... Other than that, most existing PHP code should work fine. See http://www.zend.com/zend/future.php

I don't believe Java will undergo any major changes, although I understand there are some important changes with version 1.5.

I would have to say that almost all serious languages undergo major changes during their lifecycle. Although for the time being it doesn't look like Java is due for any serious facelifts, I wouldn't discount the possibility in the future. The difference is that Microsoft, and a few others, I would imagine, intentionally obsolete platforms and rebuild them practically from scratch, or, intentionally burn compatibility bridges from time to time. PHP, Perl, Java, etc., on the other hand, make serious attempts to prevent that sort of thing from happening, so even if PHP 5 revolutionizes the language, you're not going to be left in the dust because you started writing PHP 4 code now. On the other hand, if the "next big thing" comes out from Microsoft in 6 months, and you just started writing ASP.NET now, odds are, the time you spent with .NET is totally wasted.

I think it also depends on what you want to do as a developer.

It's all in the IT strategy of the kind of comany you want to work for.

If you prefer working for big multi-national companies ($20 Million anual turnover or more) then your choices are probably going to be Java/JSP or (currently) some implementation of .NET - reason being, they tend to implement business logic into their applications. -> ie., their sales dept. in London knows that their warehouse in Nice (France) can obtain more stock from their suppliers in Bangladesh etc., therefore they should be able to ship an order out to a customer in North Carolina within 5 working days... etc. Also, the CIO usually implements an IT strategy that's based on 'what our closest competitor is using'.

If you prefer working for smaller companies then it's probably going to be a mix when it comes to application design. Most small companies I've worked for simply implemented 'whatever is most cost-effective'. So, Linux/Apache/MySQL with PERL or PHP -> other than the MySQL license, the only other cost is the developer's fees.

I prefer to work for smaller businesses because I come in as a 'consultant' and get treated with much more respect than I would working in a cubicle at some multi-national. I get to wear a suit and act like God. I often rub shoulders with the owners, get invited to country houses etc. None of that happens at a multi-national unless you've got a set of breasts and a great pair of legs. Even then it's a pretty raw deal.



Getting to work on the lastest technologies depends greatly on luck and whether or not you can convince whoever's in charge into letting you do it. Again, smaller businesses will listen to everything you have to say, and as long as it's in their interests (i.e., doesn't cut into profits too deeply/won't be expensive to maintain etc.,) you should be able to get your way.

So - in closing - you should give thought to what kind of working environment you want for yourself and based on that, choose the skills you want to invest in. In the long run, it's better that you enjoy what you do - it's better not to have to deal with bullsh*t from upper management, team leaders who (bless them) want you to work on everything they didn't want to do (usually boring bits - templates, progress reports...) and HR/Personnel department types who try to assert their 'authority' on you by insisting you have to sit next to a black person because otherwise it looks like the office is split down the middle between white and non-white workers.

I'm Japanese (yellow) by the way.

Nao

I'd say you should consider yourself lucky if you get to have any say as an intern in what languages and software you get to use on the job. I am also using ASP 3.0 in an internship, because "thats what everything else is in" for the company. I can choose my scripting language in asp, but thats it. If you can actually convince management to change to PHP or something, can you talk to my boss next?

Gimme a ring - so far, I've worked Perl, Apache and PostgreSQL into an all Microsoft shop that already had Visual Studio, IIS and MS-SQL licenses. The PostgreSQL implementation fell through because of issues with the Visual Studio compilation tools, but otherwise, everything's worked out just peachy. Next step is working Linux servers into the backend to replace Win2K web and application servers.

I'd be glad to con-sult your bosses (remember what words combine to form consult...)

Con-sult-ant.

I've gotten away with Apache/PERL on Win2K servers (supposedly Apache never quite made it past beta release) ... it works.

Payrolls, customer details, orders and inventory - with small businesses, all that matters to your boss is that these systems are designed, tested and delivered on time.

What I love most about PERL is that you really can write any application in dozens of different ways. Of course, which is the best algorithm for the task at hand is a different story. You could say PERL lends itself equally well to 'bad programming'. I've certainly written off-the-cuff before, always telling myself I'll re-write it (clean it up!) when I get the core logic done... and never returning to do that re-write.

But hey, if it works - as long as it works - it's a solution and the boss is happy!

Do you think if you got paid more, you would do a better job?

Nao

Now I'm more interested in the BIG CORPORATION vs SMALL COMPANY topic. The company I'm interning at now is a Fortune 500 company (#450 or something) and also one of the best 100 to work for. We've experienced 20% annual growth for the last 5 years. This is the part I like: a big, friendly company with stability. I interned at North America's biggest wire manufacturer last year, and believe me the company I'm with now is vastly superior in people, environment and attitute.

I guess the best thing about small companies is flexibility. Like Nao has mentioned, you can actually convince management to migrate to different systems/technologies. At this big company, it would take forever to do this. We have a centralized support group that enforced a lot of rules on current systems, because they want to be able to support everyone. Give me a break, I say. That's why it takes them forever to upgrade.

The bad thing about small business is constant instability. I would hate to move around from job to job, getting fired/laid off/leaving all the time. I want a stable position in a company with the purpose to benefit society. I honestly don't have much ambition towards growing to management. Right now I just want to develop software and solve technical problems.

Well, something's got to give.

I'm Chinese, by the way (yellow)

There's an SAS (Special Air Service - British Special Forces...) motto that goes something like this:

Who Dares, Wins.

Besides daring to pick up a live grenade that's just been tossed into your bunker and throwing it back, this approach (on balance) has been very successful.

Contracting can be very lucrative if you set yourself up with a few good agents (who says you can only have one?), a mobile phone and a laptop. OK, you need good people skills as the only thing standing between you and landing the contract is a piece of paper with the details of the last few projects you worked on and your photograph - your CV or Resume.

In the seven years I've been contracting, I have never been declined. Every interview I've sat has been successful. It's usually conducted by the department manager, his second-in-command and some techie who's not working on anything essential but wants to ask you 'difficult' questions so maybe the manager will suddenly realize that, all this time, he had some genius working right under his nose...

I'm not selling anything here, but the one thing I did in all the interviews was talk. Usually it works out that the interviewer does 70% of the talking and the interviewee does 30% or less. Man, I do 90% of the talking. What do I talk about? Case studies mostly. I use a lot of business language like 'Company Portfolio' and 'Quality Assurance' - I create my own vehicle of conversation no matter what the interviewer asked me ->



I used something like that to get the contract I'm currently working on for a certain LA-based film studio. But you could apply it UNIVERSALly to any kind of business.

It's not so much to evade answering the question, but to show them that you can talk to them in non-techie protocol. Come on, admit it, the one thing we've got going against us is the preco