Page 3 - I cannot believe This...The STUPID Bush loves to kill Please Check to see our Victims

For once, I agree. Even if you don't agree with it, it's not right to discuss and criticize the war when people are dying. I think it's about time this thread bit the dust...

Your wisdom is enlightning!

"Do you think that ever since Saddam kicked the inspectors out of Iraq that diplomacy and other “non-violent” attempts have been made to make him comply?"

This is not correct. It is a flagrant media LIE! How quickly they think we forget.

"But the most recent irritant was Mr. Butler's quick withdrawal from Iraq on Wednesday of all his inspectors and those of the International Atomic Energy Agency, which monitors Iraqi nuclear programs, without Security Council permission. Mr. Butler acted after a telephone call from Peter Burleigh, the American representative to the United Nations, and a discussion with Secretary General Kofi Annan, who had also spoken to Mr. Burleigh."

--New York Times, 12/18/98

"America's goal should be to ensure that Iraq is disarmed of all unconventional weapons.... To thwart this goal, Baghdad expelled United Nations arms inspectors four years ago."

--New York Times editorial, 8/3/02

http://www.fair.org/extra/0210/inspectors.html

The UNSCOM inspectors were withdrawn by Butler (thier head) after he was informed by Washington that Clinton was about to start Desert Fox. After wards it was proved that the UNSOM inspectors had been working with US intel and so were not allowed to return. The UNSCOM compounds camera were even used to help guide in munitions.

The point is what was more effective military action (ie Desert Storm and the later Desert Fox) or the UNSCOM inspectors two years?

UNSCOM inspectors by about 9:1.

What method do we now choose?

>>Actually we aren't allowed to assassinate foreign leaders.

A US governer let slip that GWB would recind this order if he could effectivly target Sadam.

There is one main thing that pretty much everyone around the world agrees on (Even the bloody UN did!) and that is that Saddam needs to be disarmed. 1441 said that if it didn't happen voluntary then it would be done by force. That is now happening, end of story, finito.

I personally don't agree with the war, mainly because my father served in Desert Storm whilst no side affects of that but I was ten years old when that started and when my father finally came home the first thing I said is they should have finished the job.

But it is happening so let's just get over it, no protests were ever going to make a difference here, no further arguments or conversation will convince a point, no more UN meetings will make a difference (BTW the only reason Russia and France did under no circumstance support the war has nothing to do with current situations, it is for the pure reason that the stand to loose money on arms sales to Iraq like they did in the first war.).

Oh yeah, and to those ignorant Americans, there are BRITISH people there too! Jesus you guys forget your allies so quick. The Americans did this, the Americans did that, our guys are out there fighting this tyrant too.

i watched a late night show last night (duh!), and there were iraqis who were thankful that bush warred Iraq.

That might have been only some opinions, but they were one hella of an opinion.

I may have seen the same program... the people's opinion depends upon their facton- there are three in Iraq and each have different opinions. Most of the people speaking out against Saddam are Kurds.

Allied troops liberated a children’s jail today.

I wish that sentence made no sense.

And more



That's where you are most wrong. Americans may not be the most articulate, politically savvy, etc... At times they don't care, but that is because they are never told what is going on in the world. (and the non-american press is every bit as guilty of sugar-coating the worlds happenings)

But, when we are presented with the facts of tortured, oppressed people, we care more about the people than about appearing politically correct. America fought for independence because of oppressive governments. It is a deeply emotional thing for us to see others treated the way the Iraqis have been treated. Now, bring children into the matter and we grow even more intensely emotional. Sorry if our emotions in these areas makes sophisticated left-wing lips curl...

This is really more important to most Americans, not the potential "weapons of mass destruction". It is the question "is this the right thing for the innocent people of Iraq?". It's about individuals, not governments. In Iraq, individuals did the torturing, raping, and killing. The things that have happened there are beyond belief. Where were all you wonderful self-righteous protestors when Saddam's thugs gassed the Kurds, killed women and children, even tortured children to death in front of their parents? Where was Operation Human Shield when all that was happening? Oh, wait, we weren't supposed to care about that, because it only involved some distant, non-Western group of people...

Look at the facts. Read the Amnesty International reports. THIS IS NOT A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT IN ANY WAY!!! In fact, this war is not even being bought by them in the manner of a legitimate government (more like mobsters or warlords). Many of them are fleeing the country even now, looking for the next dark corner of the world where they can ply their trade of terror and oppression. The ones who are staying are making their last stand, because they know there is NO place in the world for them after the war.

I, being of libertarian leanings, generally believe a government has no business forcing its citizens to meddle in other affairs. But really, I don't care so much what governments do, as what individuals do. I can guarantee you that almost every single soldier (my brother among them) going over to Iraq does so willingly, as an individual, knowing full well the dangers. And they are not indiscriminate killers. In fact, the British , American and other coalition troops are behaving with more dignity and restraint than I ever would think possible.

No, I'm not a blind American-lover. I am all too aware that some of the elite my country have participated in some shameful thngs. In fact I believe there was a definite hubris in the hidden elitists known as the CIA, and other behind-the-scenes manipulators, starting in the 60s and 70s. These people thought somehow that they could be somehow craftier and more sophisticated than their counterparts in the "old countries". They spread through Europe and the Middle East trying to manipulate and scheme ways to slow down those horrid Russian Communists. Now, we wish we had people as nice as communists to deal with . In so doing they helped place certain people in power, feeding them information, advice, even weapons. One of these was Osama Bin Laden; another one was Saddam Hussein.

This is a shameful thing. However, I never knew our CIA was plotting this way. Most Americans never knew it, and most would have probably felt it was wrong. It must be fixed.

I DO NOT want our country meddling. But, this isn't meddling. We are answering a plea for help. There is only one group of people who would benefits from Iraq staying as is: the very people who, in any normal society would be the serial murderers, rapists, sadistic abusers, arsonists. They would be the prison population in any sane country. Instead, in Iraq the prisons were full of people who comitted the horrible crime of not wanting to fight, or not worshipping Saddam, or of being children who picked the wrong parents. The ones who were imprisoned were the lucky ones, actually. In the next link, you will read about a man who was forced to watch his son being burned alive with gasoline because he made the mistake of getting friendly with British soldiers.

So, YOU KNOW WHAT? It's not just the horrible Americans that feel this way. That last link was from The Mirror, a UK paper which is by no means a Yankee mouthpiece.



Oh please. I am an "international" American too. I spent half my childhood in South America, half my family is Canadian, my wife is Jamaican, my brother-in-law is Swedish, and this is just the beginning of my international links. I have had friends from just about every culture, including for awhile a friend from Turkey, a scholar and musician who personally knew and worked with freedom fighters. And I'm not some raving Conservative Republican. I happen to be a libertarian.

This whole thing is not an American/anti-american thing. It should be looked at as a purely personal thing. If you personally don't care about the horrible things done over there, then fine. But some of us do care, and this was not a knee-jerk thing. Our leaders did not cry "Wahoo", jump on their horses and ride in with six-guns ablazin'. They have spent the last 10 years trying to find a way to solve these problems. The simple fact is: Saddam and his power-mongers did not want this problem solved. Ever.

>>BTW the only reason Russia and France did under no circumstance support the war has nothing to do with current situations, it is for the pure reason that the stand to loose money on arms sales to Iraq like they did in the first war.).

What country has used its veto the most in the history of the UN?

The US.

Why?
To stop US resolutions against Israel.

Why?
Because it sells Israel billions in arms each year. Or supplies Israel with billions to spend on arms in intrest free loans.

>>Oh yeah, and to those ignorant Americans, there are BRITISH people there too! Jesus you guys forget your allies so quick. The Americans did this, the Americans did that, our guys are out there fighting this tyrant too.

Don't forget the Australians.
Or the other members of the 'coalition of the willing', especially the half dozen without any army. We in Australia got a free trade agreement for our part, what will the US bribe the other countries with?

>>Where were all you wonderful self-righteous protestors when Saddam's thugs gassed the Kurds, killed women and children, even tortured children to death in front of their parents?

Protesting aginst US arms sales and support to BOTH sides in the Iraq/Iran war (as it destabilised the region and allowed the US to establish bases to 'protect' oil tankers). Who sold Iraq and Iran the weapons to take out a tanker? Guess.

If the US cares so much about WMD being used on Iraqis why did it not STOP SELLING them to Sadam when he started using them on Kurds and Iranians?

According to the Riegle senate inquiry into arms sales to Iraq in 2002 the US continued to sell to Sadam for another two years after the atrocity at Habjala in '88 that killed 5000 Kurds.

Look at some of the items the US sold him (botulism, sarin, VX, Anthrax), including 62 helecopters to spray the stuff (under farm aid).




Round and round we go again, never learning the lesson.................

You can kiss my soldier a$$. You have no idea what a soldier is. Of course we're not any better than anyone else. But I will place my life on the line at a moments notice to protect the freedom you have or to give any other person the freedoms we enjoy.

---John Holmes...

Um - BS, you guys are heros in every aspect - no matter how anyone sees it, and it was shown today by the iraq people; hugs, kisses, flowers, cigs for the smokers.

Freeing an entire country from enslavement is a magnitude of unequal proportion - so yes, you guys are better than alot of people...

PS: All you nay sayers can kiss my a$$ also...

The big difference is that there are UN policies making it illegal to do arms trade with Iraq and there are none as yet with Isreal.

The most recent US veto was to stop investigation into Israel killing UN relief workers and destroying a UN food warehouse.

Before that;

on the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Palestinian-controlled territory and condemning acts of terror against civilians:: Dec 2001

on establishing a UN observer force to protect Palestinian civilians:: March 2001

http://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...to/vetosubj.htm

>> The big difference is that there are UN policies making it illegal to do arms trade with Iraq and there are none as yet with Isreal.

There were no UN policies making it illegal to sell arms to Sadam when the US sold him WMD.

That turned out not to be a problem did it?

Oh wait...............

what was the last line of my last post..............