1. 'fie' on me, allege-dly
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    Originally Posted by Sepodati
    Sure, if they make it where you have to carry it everywhere and display it all the time, that'll be intrusive. But is anyone actually suggesting that?
    Not today. If they did, there would be a groundswell against it. They have to lie low, sucker the sheep into accepting it, and then crack down. "Papers, Please" is easy once the infrastructure is in place.

    If the ID is valuable, it will be forged. Therefore it will fail its claimed goal. Therefore its useless.

    But it will allow a much more fascist state.
  3. Banned (not really)
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    You already have to show your "papers" at many places. What's the big deal? If that's your issue, then fine, fight that. A single ID card for the US doesn't help or hinder the fact that you'll have to show your "papers" to get certain things.

    As for forged, sure... of course. Wouldn't it be easier to design and train people on a single ID card versus 50 individual state ones? Wouldn't it be easier to design more security measures on a single card versus relying on each state to do their own thing?

    It's a friggin' ID card, guys, not a tattoo on your forehead.
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    We are required to show ID to get on airplanes in the name of "security" but the only justification given is that we've had no repeat 9/11. This is similar to my argument that using a laptop in my living room keeps the elephants away.

    I believe. IMHO, etc. that the US government has no right to require such stuff, and that it is in violation of both the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

    Virginia has just decided that rather than raise taxes to pay for excessive spending, that they will have huge fines for driving tickets. The ticket for driving 85 on an Interstate in light traffic in broad daylight, good dry weather, can be over a thousand dollars. As is the ticket for "aggressive driving". It is wrong to have subjective enforcement being tied to things not related to law enforcement. It leads to abuse such as stopping folks for driving nice cars while black, or having a name such as Abdullah, Mohammad, Jose or Pedro.


    I know that many folks do not share my belief. But personal belief is not a democratic thing.
  5. Retired
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    Virginia has just decided that rather than raise taxes to pay for excessive spending, that they will have huge fines for driving tickets. The ticket for driving 85 on an Interstate in light traffic in broad daylight, good dry weather, can be over a thousand dollars. As is the ticket for "aggressive driving". It is wrong to have subjective enforcement being tied to things not related to law enforcement. It leads to abuse such as stopping folks for driving nice cars while black, or having a name such as Abdullah, Mohammad, Jose or Pedro.
    I know this isn't related to IDs, but in Finland amongst other places,
    speeding fines are proportionally based on your income (and of course, speed and locale).

    In Malaysia, I don't know whether they have speeding tickets.
    Except that they want to completely ban bike riders who speed on the highways.

    Back to ID cards, I don't think they are a bad thing.
    Since I am a foreigner anyway, I should have some form of formal identification (passport) on me at all times.
    If the ID cards are credit card size, I am all for them.
    Last edited by jabba_29; October 8th, 2007 at 11:17 AM.

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  6. Banned (not really)
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    Originally Posted by fishtoprecords
    We are required to show ID to get on airplanes in the name of "security" but the only justification given is that we've had no repeat 9/11. This is similar to my argument that using a laptop in my living room keeps the elephants away.

    I believe. IMHO, etc. that the US government has no right to require such stuff, and that it is in violation of both the letter and spirit of the Constitution.
    Okay, fine, but what's that got to do with a National ID program? Your issue is the false sense of security by requiring ID cards for flights. Separate issue of whether we should adopt a national standard for identification purposes (both inside and outside of the US, mind you).
    Virginia has just decided that rather than raise taxes to pay for excessive spending, that they will have huge fines for driving tickets.
    Note that the high ticket prices only apply to Virginia residents. I don't see how having a higher fine on a ticket leads to more or less "targetting", though. The bigots are going to target those they don't like regardless of how much the fine is. Again, a separate issue, imo.

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    Last edited by Sepodati; October 8th, 2007 at 12:40 PM.
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    My issue is that while folks seem used to IDs because the government is demanding them, we the people should not accept it. The justifications are false. It is a pure power grab.

    The high ticket prices for only VA drivers is most likely unconstitutional and, more importantly, is very unpopular politically among VA voters.

    I'll agree that arbitrary rules don't cause bigots, but they make it easier. Especially when the cops have quotas of fees to bring in. Again, its just IMHO, but I think cops should stop folks from breaking laws, separate from what the fines are.

    A bit part of my hostility to the VA fee scheme is that it is not linear. The fine for 79 in a 65 is small, the fine for 80 in a 65 is huge. So it begs for selective enforcement. I think the fine difference from 78 to 79 should be about the same as from 79 to 80. There is no real difference in the physics of what happens if you hit a tree (you are dead no matter what). If you want to make fines have a smooth exponential growth curve, I could live with that. But going from a $50 fine to a multi-thousand dollar one for 80 but not 79 is purely subjective.

    I'd love to see statistics on how many folks named Pedro or Abdullah get tickets for 81 instead of 79. And compare them to Bob, George, etc.
  8. Banned (not really)
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    Originally Posted by fishtoprecords
    My issue is that while folks seem used to IDs because the government is demanding them, we the people should not accept it. The justifications are false. It is a pure power grab.
    Start a new thread because it's a separate issue, then.
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    Originally Posted by Sepodati
    Start a new thread because it's a separate issue, then.
    I don't see how this is a separate issue. National ID cards are very bad. That is the topic of this thread.

    Several US States have rejected the RealId card and law, Maine was the first.

    There are many reasons it is bad, I start with loss of privacy, and violation of the illegal search section of the Bill of Rights.

    Equally bad is the proven incompetence of the US government agencies to protecting data. For a while, the Veterans Administration was in the news each week with another story about stolen laptops with sensitive data.

    The National ID card leads directly to a National ID usage tracking database. With where, when, etc.
  10. Crypto-Con
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    Who issues and confirms your identity is who your daddy is. Is the United States a union of states or a state with union? The Constitution states that we are a union of states in no uncertain terms. States handle the details of your personal life. The federal government exists to coordinate the states. The Federal government does not exist to govern the individuals.

    Your state is responsible for authenticating and identifying you. It's not the Fed's job. The federal government keeps making grabs for power and that's ticking a lot of us off. Especially those of us that prefer to see the Fed's get only what they *need*. If they don't need to issue us IDs (and they don't), then why should they be?

    Plus there's all the stuff about large secret databases and stuff that shouldn't be kept, but that's already been mentioned.

    And needless to say, various specifications call for RFID tag in the chip.
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    RFID tags. Boy, that is a great technology. Well accepted, cheap, secure. Not.

    WalMart's attempt to force all vendors to use RFID has failed. Big stories about it in Forbes and Wall Street Journal recently.

    Many of the RFID chips are too stupid to prevent replay attacks.
    I wonder which RFID vendor wrote that part of the ReadId law.
  12. Type Cast Exception
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    RFID tags. Musicians with $10,000 instruments love them. Helps track them down if they get stolen and they can slip them in under a pad where only an expert repair tech would be able to fish it out without damaging the instrument.

    But the technology is 100.1% evil, of course. The only thing we have to be paranoid of is our paranoia or something ... :-)
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    National ID cards are very bad.
    That's not a fact, that's an opinion. The facts are somewhere in between. Further, legal or constitutional bases are also subject to reality.

    Federal laws have supremacy over state laws. That's the basis for restricting the number of federal laws passed, if you can.

    If you can't stop passage of a federal law you don't like, then you've effectively screwed.

    Even if you can prevent a law, you can't necessarily prevent the actions. If your state doesn't want to give your information to the federal government, then the federal government merely has to withhold giving your state interstate highway monies, or similar.

    I have been shat upon by more state and local laws than by any federal law (other than taxes ). I have been forced to give my SSID in order to renew my driver's license, even though that is (or was, at the time) illegal. Despite the fact that all my children were grown, they "needed" the number to track me if I happened to be a deadbeat dad.

    I could have fought it, and been without a driver's license. Perhaps I could have spent a zillion dollars and won.

    It's beside the point. The state that possesses my ID information is going to pass it to the feds. I'll take the national ID. Hell, I did take the national ID when I was a swabbie. It didn't hurt at all.

    Except when stopped for speeding, or when buying airline or bus tickets, or when leaving the country, or when applying for a job, I have never asked to produce my "papers".

    I sure as **** wish to hell that more people were asked for their "papers" under those circumstances.
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    Originally Posted by sizablegrin
    That's not a fact, that's an opinion.
    true, I left out the IMHO, YMMV, etc from that single line. But if you look upthread, you should be able to see that this is my strongly held opinion.

    I could be wrong.

    Originally Posted by sizablegrin
    If you can't stop passage of a federal law you don't like, then you've effectively screwed.
    Amen to that.

    Originally Posted by sizablegrin
    The state that possesses my ID information is going to pass it to the feds. I'll take the national ID. Hell, I did take the national ID when I was a swabbie.
    At least the Navy was paying you to have the dogtags, etc.

    I agree that the states will pass the data to the Feds. And both the State bureaucrats and the Feds will lose it, not protect it, sell it to politicians, etc. Its inevitable.

    But I don't have to like it.

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