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    I meant without your knowledge, but I should have been more specific

    what about cloning cards?
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  3. Crypto-Con
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    Originally Posted by crownjewel82
    This one's for the yanks. What's everyone's take on the national ID card movement? Personally I don't see a problem with it. Unless there's something I'm missing.

    And if you're not a yank and want to offer your opinion and some insight on what your country does feel free.
    You're missing a lot.

    I could write on this, but I won't bother bother when Bruce Schneier has already done so.
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    I don't know. I'm not designing the system. but yes, those are all things that would have to be considered. Is there a link or something I missed? Is RFID even being considered? It honestly can't, right now, in it's current state. Not for something like this.

    My whole vision in this was national IDs replacing state issued IDs. Why have a Michigan driving license when you just have a national ID that acts as your driving license, proof of age, picture ID, etc. No "magic technology" behind this, just placing everyone under the same system. It seems like this would remove a level of complexity from each state doing their own thing.

    I really didn't think we were discussing a badge to go on your forehead that reports your location to the big eye in the sky...

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  7. 'fie' on me, allege-dly
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    Sep, Brad's link on Schneier goes someway towards explaiining some of it ... as for the badge thing ... a few dominoes need to fall, but we'll be at "Halt, show me your papers" before we get to that
    Last edited by Axweildr; December 27th, 2005 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Sc[b]h[/b]neier
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    Is there a link or something I missed? Is RFID even being considered?
    In my link above Schneier mentions a bill that proposed a national ID card system....

    I really didn't think we were discussing a badge to go on your forehead that reports your location to the big eye in the sky...
    But I'm going to keep wearing my tin-foil hat, just in case....

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    fallacies of identification as a security tool
    I see no difference between this stuff and the current system.
    The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity theft easier. Assume that this information will be collected by bars and other businesses, and that it will be resold to companies like ChoicePoint and Acxiom. It actually doesn't matter how well the states and federal government protect the data on driver's licenses, as there will be parallel commercial databases with the same information.
    How is this different from what happens when you swipe your credit card? Or when you give up your lisence number?
    Even worse, the same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect the federal government will require states to do this, with all of the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).
    Ok this I get. Although, If the government really wanted to know where you were they'd only have to employ one of their satelites.
    REAL ID requires that driver's licenses contain actual addresses, and no post office boxes. There are no exceptions made for judges or police -- even undercover police officers. This seems like a major unnecessary security risk.
    I get this too although, I would imagine that this is one of those things that will be dealt with. Not to mention that it's already too easy to get this sort of information.
    REAL ID also prohibits states from issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens. This makes no sense, and will only result in these illegal aliens driving without licenses -- which isn't going to help anyone's security.
    Ok see, I have family members who are working class and who have to compete with illegal aliens for jobs. So I've got mixed opinions on this subject anyhow.
    This is an interesting insecurity, and is a direct result of trying to take a document that is a specific permission to drive an automobile, and turning it into a general identification device.
    Ok see this is a problem with the current system. The only solution of which is to separate the two (much like a gun permit is separate). However, then you have to deal with the debate of how to identify people.
    REAL ID is expensive. It's an unfunded mandate: the federal government is forcing the states to spend their own money to comply with the act. I've seen estimates that the cost to the states of complying with REAL ID will be $120 million. That's $120 million that can't be spent on actual security.
    This I get too. But with all of the lovely tax cuts and other questionable expenditures that keep poping up I don't see where the federal government is going to get the money either.
    One of my fears is that this new uniform driver's license will bring a new level of "show me your papers" checks by the government.
    What country does this guy live in again, cause um, this happens now. In this country. Quite frequently. Especially if you happen to "look suspicious", which can mean anything from just looking a little out of place to flat out racial/age/gender/etc profiling.
    Last edited by crownjewel82; December 27th, 2005 at 06:23 PM.
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    Originally Posted by ****ing article
    The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity theft easier
    It's just another way of identity theft... I don't see how it's any easier. You can scan/copy IDs now rather easily. You still need physical access to the card at some point and that's not going to go away. With the system we have now, what are the odds a bar in Washington state is going to recognize a fake florida license? Sure, they got the books, but who actually uses that ****?

    It's up to you whether your new ID would be scanned. It's up to you to decide if you trust the place to do the scanning or not. Casinos that I go in now scan my drivers license, but because I choose to allow them to.

    Even worse, the same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect the federal government will require states to do this, with all of the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).
    You suspect? Well I ****ing suspect your a **** sucker. I agree that RFID has it's issues, so I don't think you'd see them in the first versions of the ID cards.

    REAL ID requires that driver's licenses contain actual addresses, and no post office boxes. There are no exceptions made for judges or police -- even undercover police officers. This seems like a major unnecessary security risk.
    Meh... yeah, I guess so.

    REAL ID also prohibits states from issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens. This makes no sense, and will only result in these illegal aliens driving without licenses -- which isn't going to help anyone's security.
    Good... they can go back home. This means they won't be able to buy any booze, either, so at least they won't be driving drunk without a license. WTF are we giving aliens a license, anyhow? If this whole bill is just an anti-immigration bill, as he alludes to at the end, it's sure a whole lot of mess to go through just for that.

    I think we ought to give 'em an ID with a big ****ing ALIEN across it. Don't like it? Go home or become a citizen. I mean, you kinda gotta take what roles down the hill when you're here illegally, no?

    REAL ID is expensive. It's an unfunded mandate: the federal government is forcing the states to spend their own money to comply with the act. I've seen estimates that the cost to the states of complying with REAL ID will be $120 million. That's $120 million that can't be spent on actual security.
    I don't know what a state's budget is, so I have nothing to compare this amount to. What percent of the budget is $120 million? It's a one time cost, though. You switch machines and train the employees on the new system and distribute information to businesses to identify the new IDs. meh...

    The rest is more speculation and "what-ifs"... IFF "the man" introduces a "show me your papers" bill, then you fight it for whatever reasons (you don't like it). You can't guess where **** is going to go and fight it because you don't like your guesses. if that's the case, we should get rid of IDs entirely, because they can lead to all of this stuff, too.

    Good discussion, though.

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    I have family members who are working class and who have to compete with illegal aliens for jobs
    Oooh, offtopic rant!

    I think that's pretty much bull****. See, these "companies" that hire these "illegal aliens" are only doing so because they would have to pay far less. However, if only a little effort went into making sure that the companies had to pay everyone that worked in a certain position equally, there would be no incentive to hire people who are here illegally [and who probably can't speak to well, or work with others too well] over people who are here legally [whose being hired would offer no risk, and only benefits].

    ...Sorry

    Anyways, I personally think the IDs are no problem, as long as the information they are able to collect can only be viewed by those that need it (read: not at the local level, except for police for the obvious proper reasons).
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    <offtopic>I believe that anyone should have the right to come here and legally obtain status to work here. However, I don't believe that someone should be able to just "hop the fence" and get treated like a citizen. I've been places where they shot first when you did that. (Not that we should do that but we should be doing something.) I vote for criminal charges for those who hire illegal workers. And fines equal to all profits made from their labor.</offtopic>

    My opinion on illegal aliens stated. I have no desire for them to walk around with a drivers license as if they were legally here.
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    The argument for licensing illegals is safety. If you don't live in a border state, chances are pretty good you have not heard the pro-side of the argument. It's pretty solid, actually.

    A person who is driving down the road and does not understand what a "do not enter" sign means which strikes another vehicle is just as likely to cause a fatality regardless of their citizenship. The argument being: well, if you give them a basic license exam and materials at least they know what the dammed sign means.
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    I suppose that's fair. But that's all the more reason for drivers lisence to be separate from identification. A drivers lisence is the most common form of identification/citizenship verification in this country. It stands to reason that someone without citizenship (or other legal status) wouldn't be able to have one.
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    Why wouldn't you want to give them an ID, really? Then the man, with his magic, high-tech cards, will know where the illegals are at all the time. Hell, they'll probably be able to zap them with the cards or perform mind control, so go ahead and let them have one. The black helicopters will come down out of the sky and beam them all up to the mothership to take them back home... what could be easier!?

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    Originally Posted by crownjewel82
    How is this different from what happens when you swipe your credit card? Or when you give up your lisence number?
    Credit cards are a private industery. The Federal government is not.

    Ok this I get. Although, If the government really wanted to know where you were they'd only have to employ one of their satelites.
    Their satilittes cannot magically find one person instantaniously. It would take some serious searching before they could uncover that.

    Ok see this is a problem with the current system. The only solution of which is to separate the two (much like a gun permit is separate). However, then you have to deal with the debate of how to identify people.
    Which seems to point to a REALID system or something, but that's not practical atm. A better solution might be to implement this at the state level, but then you still have the problem of cost vs benefit.

    What country does this guy live in again, cause um, this happens now. In this country. Quite frequently. Especially if you happen to "look suspicious", which can mean anything from just looking a little out of place to flat out racial/age/gender/etc profiling.
    I'm not sure exactily what's meant by that either, so I have to agree with you.

    Originally Posted by Sepodati
    You suspect? Well I ****ing suspect your a **** sucker. I agree that RFID has it's issues, so I don't think you'd see them in the first versions of the ID cards.
    And you think that they're going to issue a National ID card to the tune of $120 million and then turn around and issue a recall on those so they can crank out a new set with the new features on them? Does that sound anything like what the Federal government would do?
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    Originally Posted by B-Con
    Credit cards are a private industery. The Federal government is not.
    And that's got what to do with identity theft?
    Their satilittes cannot magically find one person instantaniously. It would take some serious searching before they could uncover that.
    ID cards can't instantly find people, either, without readers EVERYWHERE. You think they're just going to sneak them out in the middle of the night, EVERYWHERE, and no one will notice?
    Which seems to point to a REALID system or something, but that's not practical atm. A better solution might be to implement this at the state level, but then you still have the problem of cost vs benefit.
    If you leave it up to the states, you get the same system we have now. You get 50 different versions of what's supposed to be the same thing.
    And you think that they're going to issue a National ID card to the tune of $120 million and then turn around and issue a recall on those so they can crank out a new set with the new features on them? Does that sound anything like what the Federal government would do?
    Are these things indestructable and never expire, or what? They'll wear out and, more likely, expire within a few years and then a new card is issued. They can phase-in new versions of the cards over a 3 year process if all cards expire in 3 years (which is how long mine lasts now).

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    Originally Posted by B-Con
    But I'm going to keep wearing my tin-foil hat, just in case....
    Watch out the hats are a conspiracy in themselves! http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

    Personally, if there was any talk of RFID chips, I'd be firmly opposed to it, as it is, it seems to do no harm, but it still seems like an unjustifiable expense....

    (Oh, and has anyone read the 'University of Insecurity' article in the latest 2600? Not much in relation, but still an interesting look at 'standardised' IDs, well a poor implementation of them by a university anyway, the magazines are floating around on the net, so if you can't get them where you are.....)

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