Dev Shed Lounge
 
Forums: » Register « |  User CP |  Games |  Calendar |  Members |  FAQs |  Sitemap |  Support | 
User Name:
Password:
Remember me
Go Back   Dev Shed ForumsOtherDev Shed Lounge

Reply
Add This Thread To:
  Del.icio.us   Digg   Google   Spurl   Blink   Furl   Simpy   Y! MyWeb 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
 
Unread Dev Shed Forums Sponsor:
Learn four approaches for automating Excel logic, along with advantages and disadvantages of each. Read all about it in the free whitepaper: “Tapping into Excel Logic from Java: Four Server-Based AlternativesDownload Now!
  #1  
Old November 22nd, 2002, 12:22 PM
Ctb's Avatar
Ctb Ctb is offline
An Ominous Coward
Dev Shed Specialist (4000 - 4499 posts)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,425 Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level) 
Time spent in forums: 3 Weeks 10 h
Reputation Power: 0
Responsibility / Liability for Security In Our Software

A question of curiosity that may be of some benefit to myself and other fledgling developers:

How do you folks handle the issue of security liability in your programming? I strive to make my scripts (especially my scripts for other people) as secure as possible by default. However, no program or programmer or programming language is perfect, and there will always be security problems. How do you folks let your clients know up front about this? Do you disavow anything related to the security of your scripts beyond fixing holes that are found? Do you specify right off that you will not be responsible for lost data, time, business, etc. for security holes? I don't want to wring my clients out to dry on this issue, but, frankly, I don't want to accept responsibility for super-hidden security problems in a script when I know I made every attempt to make it secure "out of the box". I already offer to make free fixes for any glaring bugs / security problems that are found. So, how do you guys that've been in the biz a little longer handle this sticky issue?

[P.S.: Sorry, had a hard time coming up with a subject]

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old November 22nd, 2002, 12:55 PM
thedude thedude is offline
The Dude Abides
Dev Shed Beginner (1000 - 1499 posts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: grass valley,ca
Posts: 1,063 thedude User rank is Just a Lowly Private (1 - 20 Reputation Level) 
Time spent in forums: 1 Day 9 h 4 m 29 sec
Reputation Power: 10
Well, you can't see the future, and you can't guess what new hack might come out next week.

I build scripts to be as secure as currently possible. That means checking user input, addslashes, limiting the input size on form fields, etc. I also like to limit the amount of data a user can actually input. If you use drop downs, radio buttons, check boxes, etc. you can reduce your vulnerability to hacks (can't paste code into a radio button). It also has the added benefit of reducing user screwups, i.e. where the visitor types the wrong info into a form.

If something comes up down the road, then I charge to fix it. If it's a mistake that I made, then no charge. One way around this is ongoing support contracts with clients. That way if there is a security problem down the road the cost to fix is just part of the support contract. And neither side feels like they are getting the shaft.
__________________
The Dude
I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me.
That, or Duder, His Dudeness, Or El Duderino.
If, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old November 22nd, 2002, 01:18 PM
Hero Zzyzzx's Avatar
Hero Zzyzzx Hero Zzyzzx is offline
11
Dev Shed Demi-God (4500 - 4999 posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lynn, MA
Posts: 4,632 Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level)Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level)Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level)Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level)Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level)Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level)Hero Zzyzzx User rank is Second Lieutenant (5000 - 10000 Reputation Level) 
Time spent in forums: 4 Days 23 h 12 m 33 sec
Reputation Power: 76
Send a message via AIM to Hero Zzyzzx
Don't rely on drop-down menus (or other "limited choice" form elements) as a security measure- A malicious user could always just save your form locally and edit it to send whatever they want to your server. This requires only a very low-level understanding of HTML.

For instance- say you had a drop-down menu that pushed a value straight into an SQL query- you're vulnerable, unless you untaint the data.

A higher level cracker could just write a bot to simulate a web browser and send anything they wanted, too.

Validation should be both client and server side, and on ALL parameters.

You probably knew that, I just don't want other users to misinterpret your post as implying that drop-down menus make a more secure app. Less error prone in general usage, yes. More secure, no.

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old November 22nd, 2002, 07:48 PM
Ctb's Avatar
Ctb Ctb is offline
An Ominous Coward
Dev Shed Specialist (4000 - 4499 posts)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,425 Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level)Ctb User rank is Colonel (50000 - 60000 Reputation Level) 
Time spent in forums: 3 Weeks 10 h
Reputation Power: 0
I feel fairly comfortable, I'm just looking for "how do I cover my own ***" if something goes wrong? In other words, if the client gets cracked, then what?

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old November 25th, 2002, 02:26 PM
thedude thedude is offline
The Dude Abides
Dev Shed Beginner (1000 - 1499 posts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: grass valley,ca
Posts: 1,063 thedude User rank is Just a Lowly Private (1 - 20 Reputation Level) 
Time spent in forums: 1 Day 9 h 4 m 29 sec
Reputation Power: 10
Hero,
You're right I didn't mean it as a "foolproof" method, just reduces vulnerability, anything can be circumvented.

I should have said it makes it more difficult for the malicious user. Instead of pasting bad code into a text box, they have to work a little more to get around it. The harder you make it to get in, the less likely they are to bother with it.

Although some might see it as a challenge.

The main reason I do it that way is to prevent user screwups.

CTB,
I haven't personally seen too many instances where servers get cracked, especially if they are linux or freebsd. Really big or popular sites are generally the targets of competent hackers, and not small biz sites.

Generally, if your host has things setup properly, keeps up with patches, passwords are complex, etc. sites won't get cracked. You should still take security very seriously.

If a client gets cracked and it's your fault, then you would first need to find out the how's and why's, and then fix the problem. When writng your scripts consider what will happen if the site does get cracked. Is there sensitive data? If so, should it be stored this way or is there a better way? Think about the worst case scenario and then figure out how to prevent it.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Viewing: Dev Shed ForumsOtherDev Shed Lounge > Responsibility / Liability for Security In Our Software


Thread Tools  Search this Thread 
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes  Rate This Thread 
Rate This Thread:


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
View Your Warnings | New Posts | Latest News | Latest Threads | Shoutbox
Forum Jump

 Free IT White Papers!
 
Accelerating Trading Partner Performance
One in five. That's how many partner transactions have at least one error. That is an amazing statistic, particularly given the extraordinary leaps in innovation across the global supply chain during the past two decades. Download this white paper to learn more.

 
Competing on Analytics
This Tech Analysis is designed to help identify characteristics shared by analytics competitors, and includes information about 32 organizations that have made a commitment to quantitative, fact-based analysis.

 
Cost Effective Scaling with Virtualization and Coyote Point Systems
An overview of the industry trend toward virtualization, how server consolidation has increased the importance of application uptime and the steps being taken to integrate load balancing technology with virtualized servers.

 
Five Checkpoints to Implementing IP Telephony
Implementation planning for IP PBX software and IP telephony has become vital as businesses replace discontinued legacy PBX phone systems. This informative whitepaper outlines five "checkpoints" for any implementation plan that will help make IP communications a successful proposition.

 
Hosted Email Security: Staying Ahead of New Threats
In the last two years, email has become a fierce battleground between the nefarious forces of spam and malware, and the heroes of messaging protection. The spam volumes increased alarmingly every month, bringing clever new forms of phishing and virus propagation attacks.

 

Forums: » Register « |  User CP |  Games |  Calendar |  Members |  FAQs |  Sitemap |  Support | 
  
 





© 2003-2008 by Developer Shed. All rights reserved. DS Cluster 4 hosted by Hostway