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    You're still missing my fundamental point though. The server is just another computer. The question is, do you have sufficient control over this computer to run a program continuously on it? You're not serving scripts through a webserver. You're running arbitrary programs on their computers.

    Can you install whatever software you feel like on their computer, and run whatever programs you want, on their computer? Because that's what effectively you will be doing with the "server". If you need a test server, you can use your own computer for it, you know...
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  2. #17
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    The answer to the question is - no i cant do this, so does that me no game?
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    Use your computer both server and client addressed to your localhost.
  6. #19
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    Well let me re phrase my previous post.

    The host does not allow you to install applications onto the server. But you can install web applications like PHPbb etc. The host does not allow server side java but allows java to make applets. I'm not sure even how to make a programme that constantly runs, can it no be done where the program becomes active, for example a user logging in. So this comes to the question

    Is it still possible to make this game multiplayer?

    As i can make a 1 player game and work it on the applet. But the whole aspect of gathering information on "who's online" and making their characters appear on the local machine. I would take this is "server side java". Is it possible to achieve the affect of multiplayer without server side java. Here's what i was thinking PHP wise; although this wouldnt work for game development, unless you can put php in .class files?

    User logs in
    Details inserted into mysql database.
    User starts online game in browser.
    User sees the characters in game because the game is knowing to render from the details in the database.
    User logs out.
    User information removed from database.
    Other players dont see player anymore.

    However, i can see my dreams of a multiplayer game diminishing into dust, please tell me i can do this without server side java. And even so, What defines "server side java"? I was thinking of C# and XNA but i dont want to pay the extra like $60 for .NET Framework to be swiched on.
  8. #20
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    Originally Posted by BioSlayer
    You most likely wonít have a single line of PHP in a project like this.

    You will want to learn about Direct3D or OpenGl or the plethora of engines that do rendering for games. Then you will need to learn about TCP/IP or UDP to do communication between your client and server.

    You have a lot of learning to do.

    Personally I would use the C# language and then use XNA.
    Hello,

    I have finally manged to get visual c# and xna installed and am slowly making a game. But, i am still confused on how to put the game on my website, how do i run the game from a web page. Also, i take it with the .NET Framework installed on the server the game will work?

    Thanks, for your greatly help and advice everyone! really appreciated!
  10. #21
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    But, i am still confused on how to put the game on my website, how do i run the game from a web page.
    You wouldn't. This is a 3D game right? You wouldn't be using a web browser and website for that.

    Also, i take it with the .NET Framework installed on the server the game will work?
    Huh? Whenever you run a program on a computer, you need the prerequisites for the program. For example, C# programs rely on the .NET framework. So if your game client was in C#, anyone who runs your game client would need the .NET framework. If your server program was in pure C++, which doesn't rely on the .NET framework, then any computer that runs the server program is not going to need .NET. That's about it.

    Maybe we don't understand precisely what you want to build. Can you give us examples of games (already made by other people) that you imagine when you think 3D multiplayer game?
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  12. #22
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    Oh, i never realised that the whole c# aspect would not be able to go on my website.

    I will give an example of what i think a 3d online game is (this is just an example)

    Runescape.

    So would i need to use java for this and not c#?
  14. #23
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    And this is why technical forums emphasize details. They matter. Your description of 3d multiplayer game was so vague, we had to guess what you were talking about. Apparently, you're looking at those in-browser MMORPGS.

    You can't really use C# for the client. Silverlight (which allows embedding in the browser) is cutting edge WIP. Currently, the two technologies for in browser realtime games are Java applets and Flash. That's client side.

    The browser programs need to communicate with a server program. Because this is realtime MMO, you can't use a normal web browser to handle requests. A web browser handles requests for websites and webpages, i.e. HTTP requests. Your server program is going to have to implement a protocol for continuous communication between a client and server.

    The language you use for the server is anything with good networking capabilities. I mentioned this before.
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  16. #24
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    I am sorry, i know see the confusion.

    Thanks for clearing that up, i think i will use java now. Before i go learn anything more, i posted a quote from my host concering "server side" java. Would a java multiplayer game still work within those limitations? if not, is there ways around this?

    Also i assume if i work with "Java 3D" this will work as an applet for online play through a browser, correct?

    Also, so i get off on the right foot - what would be "the java kit list" for developing a java game.

    I have -

    - A java compiler
    - 3d software

    I need to get -

    - Java 3D
    - A Java 3D Loader

    Aything else?


    Sorry and Thanks for the help,
  18. #25
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    Thanks for clearing that up, i think i will use java now. Before i go learn anything more, i posted a quote from my host concering ďserver sideĒ java. Would a java multiplayer game still work within those limitations? if not, is there ways around this?
    The actual limitation is that your host just provides you a webserver, not an actual computer you can run your own software on. I already mentioned this, but you seem to not have understood. Iíll try explaining it a bit more, but you need to Google and read up on these concepts.

    Start with the Client-Server model. Client refers to the component in the architecture that requests some common service, like many other clients. Server is the component that serves all the client.

    In the case of websites, clients are the web browsers and the computers all the site visitors use. Server refers to the application that handles HTTP requests (like Apache or IIS or Tomcat) and the computer that runs the HTTP serving application. For example, if I ran Apache on my computer, it would be a server. If you ran Apache on your computer, it would be a server.

    Now think of a multiplayer game (nothing to do with websites). Each player runs on his computer the game. For multiplayer, all the players need a way of communicating with one another, to know who is online, where they are, and so on. So you need a central computer that takes all that information, and then sends it to the other computers. This central computer is the server. Thatís about it.

    In a 3D game, you typically want it to be realtime, right? So you need communication between the server and the clients to be in realtime. They need to form a persistent connection, on which the server and clients can freely communicate information whenever they want. That means you need a protocol that supports this kind of connection and communication. The one in use by websites is HTTP, which will not do. HTTP works like this: a client sends an HTTP request to a server. And if a server feels like it, it responds with appropriate information. Actually thatís oversimplifying, but the point is, itís not constant communication. Itís a new connection everytime the client wants something from the webserver.

    But you want a realtime persistent communication. So you canít use Apache or IIS (or any webserver) like your host provides. You need to create your own program to act as a server.
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  20. #26
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    Talking


    Thanks for explaining. I know understand what needs to be done in theory. seeing as you know i want to make a MMORPG (without the first M) would it be possible to do the back end of the program in PHP and MySQL, as i would feel much more comfortable as i know what i was doing and it would be 10x easier to understand and achieve. I have seen a java applet that was back coded in i think it was Pearl or Pear. So if i could do thins and have the client see the java applet which would include the graphics ect. Then handle connections and actions using PHP, although i am sensing a problem about the presistant connection.

    On the Java and Game Development side. Do i make my "world/map" on a 3D modeling software then export it as Direct X or 3D Studio. Now, How do i control for example i know in XNA this is called "bones" which is the movement ie a door opens and a an arm moves, do i use Java 3D for this? or can it be achieved with conventional Java?

    So if i make the whole world using 3d software and load it into Java using a 3DS loader i can go on to create an morpg?

    Also, im thinking of using jME will this be good for a MORPG?
  22. #27
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    Thanks for explaining. I know understand what needs to be done in theory. seeing as you know i want to make a MMORPG (without the first M) would it be possible to do the back end of the program in PHP and MySQL, as i would feel much more comfortable as i know what i was doing and it would be 10x easier to understand and achieve.
    Mmm. No, not really. PHP is very much centered around as a web language, to be used for server side scripting. Itís not a bad thing, but that happens to be a limitation when youíre trying to work on major standalone programs. I donít know how frequently PHP is used outside of the webserver, but Iím guessing most people would rather pick another high level language.

    I have seen a java applet that was back coded in i think it was Pearl or Pear.
    Perl? Sure, thatís an option for the server, I suppose. I donít think it would be a common choice, though.

    So if i could do thins and have the client see the java applet which would include the graphics ect. Then handle connections and actions using PHP, although i am sensing a problem about the presistant connection.
    Well, itís not just persistent connection. Itís using PHP for writing a standalone high performance program. Outside the webserver, PHP really isnít in its niche.

    On the Java and Game Development side. Do i make my ďworld/mapĒ on a 3D modeling software then export it as Direct X or 3D Studio. Now, How do i control for example i know in XNA this is called ďbonesĒ which is the movement ie a door opens and a an arm moves, do i use Java 3D for this? or can it be achieved with conventional Java?
    Java 3D is just a set of third party high level APIs. You could reimplement the equivalent of Java 3D yourself, given enough resources. Itís your option to use Java 3D or any other third party library for that matter. If youíre looking into game libraries and graphics libraries on Java, you may want to look around a bit more. Java 3D is not the only option.

    In case youíre not understanding, itís like PHP and PEAR. PEAR doesnít replace PHP or anything like that. A bunch of smart people wrote the libraries that make up PEAR, and itís prewritten code that you can use yourself. You donít have to though.

    So if i make the whole world using 3d software and load it into Java using a 3DS loader i can go on to create an morpg?
    Eh, thereís a bit more to it.

    Also, im thinking of using jME will this be good for a MORPG?
    Huh? Why J2ME?
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  24. #28
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    Yeah, i downloaded jME as it seems a good resource, but im still trying to work out how to use the code.
  26. #29
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    You didn't mention that you wanted to build an MMORPG that would work on an embedded or mobile device. Wait, you do realize what J2ME is for?

    EDIT: Perhaps you are talking about Java Monkey Engine? Abbreviations can sometimes be confusing...

    Do you actually know the Java language? JME is just a library for Java. If you don't know Java itself, then using third party libraries would be a problem.
    Last edited by Oler1s; November 30th, 2007 at 01:14 PM.
    When you ask a question, be prepared to tell us: what have you tried? If you think you don't need to try anything, we will never be interested in helping you. If you agree with the link, and you refuse to answer that question, you are being a hypocrite.

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    Sorry yes itsjava monkey engine, it looked quite good on their website... I have also downloaded eclipse which does provide a nice editing interface. I know its just a code library but some of the code is good.

    About the annoying restriction on "server side java" if i did make the java game as an application then people would downloaded,it i guess it would still need server side java to make it multiplayer etc.

    I'm kind of stuck for ideas, i have the resources but i have no idea about the basics of game making, so maybe you guys could help me -

    Is it best to create the whole world/map in a 3d software then load it into the java and work the game onto the model or do you build it in parts and position them separately. Like a house you would position in such and such place or build the house onto the map.

    Also what / how do you guys design the movements of models - like a door opening and a man walking?

    Thanks,

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