Thread: Help requested

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    Help requested


    Hello to all. Let me start by saying I am basically a caveman when it comes to programming, I know nothing about it. What I would like to do, hopefully to avoid being flamed or bashed, is to give a basic synopsis of what kind of game I want to create and ask that if anyone would be willing to talk with me (possibly at great length) to please pm me. With that being said here is what I would like to try and make.


    Most of you probably don't play collectable card games, so you probably never saw the site Gameking.hudzilla.org. It was a site where you could play yugioh online. With this site you didn't need to download anything you just needed to register. It was 2D and all the controls were manual (I.E when you draw or flip a card). In essence I would like to make a clone of this site only a better version. The site is no longer online, the site was sold and I guess the new owner is either lazy or doesnít have the money to run it. I believe it was written in java but Iím not sure. There are a lot of cards in this game so I know there will be a lot of coding and that I will not be able to complete this quickly.

    So there it is, if any of you have experience with this type of game and wouldn't mind helping a NOOB out please pm me.
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    What I would like to do, hopefully to avoid being flamed or bashed, is to give a basic synopsis of what kind of game I want to create and ask that if anyone would be willing to talk with me (possibly at great length) to please pm me.
    Unfortunately, you're already off on the wrong foot by asking for personal pms and help. This isn't a help wanted board or request mechanism that you might use your newspapers classifieds or craiglist or the like for. As with other forums and public discussions, the idea is that you post a well formed question to the public and will get responses by people who do so purely on their own inclination. If you're looking for tutoring sessions, private consulting sessions, or anything where someone has to devote great amounts of time to you personally, this is the wrong place to make such a request. There's a help wanted or hire a programmer forum. Make a post in those forums (and perhaps consider monetary compensation in your request).

    Otherwise, if you have general questions about game development that you're willing to have a discussion in public about, that's great. So moving on.

    There are a lot of cards in this game so I know there will be a lot of coding and that I will not be able to complete this quickly.
    Content creation is definitely time consuming. Actually, if you simplistically split games into the actual programming work and the content development, the latter isn't trivial. It's not programming, but artists still have to devote time to it. I also noted that you are essentially cloning a collectible card game. Careful here. You could run into legal troubles depending on how much you clone. A collectible card game is a generic idea, but if you directly clone concepts from another existing game, expect trouble.

    You've mentioned YuGiOh (I recall seeing these cards in stores a long time ago) and Google reveals that is a franchise that includes the card trading game. You can create a clone for your own personal use, but replicate this for public consumption and you'll run into trouble straight away. If the past site owner closed, and he had a game that clone YuGiOh card trading without a license to do so, it's possible he got shut down legally.

    So there it is, if any of you have experience with this type of game and wouldn't mind helping a NOOB out please pm me.
    I mentioned the PM issue. Furthermore, if you have never programmer before, you are not in a position to make this game. Making a game isn't like learning to use Microsoft Word (albeit a more complex version). You need expert knowledge gained from significant time spent learning on your own. If you are under the delusion that you can make this game with third party "assistance", you'll just get my point blasted repeatedly in your direction.

    You essentially have two options. You have a large amount of money to dedicate to hiring programmers and content creators that know what they are doing. Or you learn yourself. But you can't ask for "assistance".
    When you ask a question, be prepared to tell us: what have you tried? If you think you don't need to try anything, we will never be interested in helping you. If you agree with the link, and you refuse to answer that question, you are being a hypocrite.

    Need help with broken code? Your question should be like a good bug report: (1) It has the smallest number of steps to reproduce the problem you see (2) It tells us precisely what you expected to see and (3) It tells us what you saw and how it differed from what you expected. We need all three to help you.
    Want better answers? Tell us what you Googled for and what steps you took to answer your own question.
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    I appreciate your attempt at civility. Iím not looking for people to do this for me, I merely want to find someone who has first hand knowledge in making this type of game to tell me where to start, maybe suggest a class to take or a book to read, whether I should use java or C++ or a site that would make this easier for me. If there is a game engine that will do most of what I want then there would be no need to reinvent the wheel. As for asking for pmís , I have read quite a few topics on this site and was hoping to avoid the ďelitistĒ posters who would rather spend time telling me how much of a noob I am and thereís no way I can do what Iím trying to do. I donít think for one second this will be easy and or quick, however Iím not a kid and am capable of learning

    Is there anyone who would like to point me in the right direction?
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    Before you get impatient, I'll point you in a general direction. But you should read the entirety of my post, because you need to understand what you are devoting your time to.

    So in general highly interactive webpages are accomplished with one or more of three mechanisms. I talk about highly interactive webpages because you are looking for a browser based game where the person goes to a website and can do fancy things almost like a desktop game.

    The three approaches to that level of interactivity are Javascript and AJAX, Java applets, and Flash.

    Javascript is a client side language that browsers implement. You can get a fair bit of interactivity with it. AJAX is best thought of as a set of approaches with various technologies. The objective of AJAX is allow communication between the browser and the server in the background, without having to go to a new webpage. But there's limits to how far you can go, for various reasons, with Javascript. Thus you need either Java or Flash depending on how much you demand from your game. Take a pick after researching both. I can't necessarily recommend one over the other.

    Iím not looking for people to do this for me,
    I didn't think you were. The problem is that there aren't defined paths that say "if you want to make this game, do X, Y, and Z". There's principles and concepts that are followed, but how precisely one approaches any program is up to the programmer. So I recognize your request for direction, but the problem is you're looking for very specific advice on how to precisely approach your program. The problem is the answer you get isn't necessarily correct. It's how one programmer either would or has approached a similar project.

    Do you understand what I'm getting at? Someone else is dictating to you how you should approach the program. They aren't empowering you to make the decision yourself, as they are making key decisions themselves. Should you use Java or C++? Maybe both? That's a decision the programmer makes after thinking about the program and how he would approach it. If I tell you to go with Java, I'm envisioning a certain approach to the problem that if you are not a programmer, will not understand the consequences of.

    Look, you either fall into two mentalities at the moment. Either what you really care about is this particular game, and concepts of programming while nice, really don't interest you unless they are required for the game. The other mentality is that you want to learn to program, but this game is what you have in mind right now.

    My answer is largely based on the second point of view. I assume you want to be a programmer. If you end up not making this game, that's OK, because you'll be making something else. It would help if you clarify your position here. Are you more interested in having this particular game developed or more interested in programming games, with this one game as a possible goal?
    When you ask a question, be prepared to tell us: what have you tried? If you think you don't need to try anything, we will never be interested in helping you. If you agree with the link, and you refuse to answer that question, you are being a hypocrite.

    Need help with broken code? Your question should be like a good bug report: (1) It has the smallest number of steps to reproduce the problem you see (2) It tells us precisely what you expected to see and (3) It tells us what you saw and how it differed from what you expected. We need all three to help you.
    Want better answers? Tell us what you Googled for and what steps you took to answer your own question.
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    Originally Posted by will222
    Most of you probably don't play collectable card games, so you probably never saw the site Gameking.hudzilla.org. It was a site where you could play yugioh online. With this site you didn't need to download anything you just needed to register. It was 2D and all the controls were manual (I.E when you draw or flip a card). In essence I would like to make a clone of this site only a better version. The site is no longer online, the site was sold and I guess the new owner is either lazy or doesnít have the money to run it. I believe it was written in java but Iím not sure. There are a lot of cards in this game so I know there will be a lot of coding and that I will not be able to complete this quickly.
    Like Oler1s said there are only a couple of possibilities to make such a website:
    • Javascript/AJAX
    • ActiveX
    • Java Applet
    • Flash
    • MS Silverlight
    • maybe some other less well know ones...
    While I've seen Lemmings implemented in Javascript, I don't recommend this for a full fledged browser game. You are still bound by the limitations of HTML and the browser specific stuff will make programming your game even more of a headache.

    ActiveX is IE only. 'nuff said.

    Java Applets, Flash and Silverlight are more or less equivalent. For all of them the user will need a browser plugin but most folks will probably have it already. Applets require you to learn Java, Silverlight one of the .NET languages and Flash - well - FlashScript or whatever that's called. If you want to learn something that you can used in other areas I suggest you pick Applets or Silverlight since you can use that for desktop programs and websites too.

    Now about the program itself. You've set yourself a high goal there. I don't know the features that site had but I know some other programs that allow TCG's being played online... They aren't simple. If you are thinking about rules enforcement just forget about it. The only programs I've seen to do that are the commercial ones for MtG and Stargate. This is a huge pile of work. Think about how many cards there are in YGO - a few thousand, right? You'd have to program the behavior of every single card and also how they interact with all the other cards. There's a reason why this is so rarely done.

    Last but not least even if you only want to make a virtual card table you're still looking at a lot of work. To illustrate this. OCTGN 2 - one such cardplay program took the developer more than two years from the initial blog post to the point where it's playable but still not complete... So even if we reduce this number by half because you only want to support one game instead of many we are still looking at a sizeable investment of time. Add to that the time to learn how to program and ask yourself if you want to try that...

    I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or pessimistic but I think it's better for you to know what you're getting into than waste half a year and give up disappointed...

    If your goal is simply to play YGO online go look if you can integrate it into one of the existing programs like OCTGN 2, Lackey, MWS or others.

    If you simply want to learn how to program and want this as a exercise I say: great, go ahead! You'll need other - smaller - exercises on the way or your motivation will break down but keep working on it.

    If you insist on web based solution and really want to do this I say good luck. You've got a long road ahead of you but if you pull it of you'll have something to be truly proud of.
    - Hugh of Borg

    The first thing young borg are taught: Keep away from Microsoft software!
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    First off i would like to thank you both for posting. your insight has been helpful. Oler1s, i understand what you mean by other people picking what i use so i will look at all of them and see which one i feel best suits what i wish to accomplish. Any suggestions on beginner guides for these will be appreciated. Once again thank you both.

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