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    I am Back


    Well, I started down this path before a couple of years ago, to learn Java, barely got past "hello" world, when I was moved to a different team to write VBA stuff for some of our QA processes...now I am spending most time maintaining some VB stuff and writing DB2 SQL/PL stored procedures. The focus has now changed and am told that I need to learn IBM's RAD tool,Rational Application Developer, and that stuff will be running on Websphere with all sorts of stuff that basically I have maybe heard the names of a few times portlets, beans, jsp, etc.

    Sorry for the long-winded intro, but what I am looking for is a way to get a similar environment on my home Win XP machine. Betting that Rational and Websphere probably are some $$$ more that I'd want to spend, but betting that there are open source alternatives that would at least allow me to continue the learning process during my free time at home, as far as learning how to write the various things involved. Any suggestions/links/etc. very much appreciated!

    thanks!

    fv
    ...because that is the way we have always done it. We've been doing it like that for 80 Years! (How do we change that mindset?)
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    Idk if its because i took the AP test this morning and my brain is drained like hell, but i cant understand what you are trying to say....

    Im guessing you want a IDE, so try out Netbeans, and check out the "Resources For Learning Java" sticky at the top for Resources for learning Java. Also if you are a real beginner you might want to just follow the "Getting Started" tutorials on Java Suns site and then compile things using the command line, not an IDE.
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    ok, I will type really slowly... ;-)
    Coming from an ASP/VB/VBA/.NET background. About to be thrown into a Rational/Websphere/Java environment. Mostly web portal apps I think, we don't know yet. Would like to create a similar dev environment here at home on an XP machine for learning purposes. Pretty sure all this IBM stuff costs more $$$ than I want to pay. Thinking that I could use some open source stuff here just explore the coding and get used to such things as beanos....make sense? I want to emulate as much as is possible here at home what the work environment will be, but without spending a boatload of $$$. The language itself just looks C-Like, like PHP or javascript,just dont have a clue as to all the widgets and would like to be able to work on learning this as much as possible.

    I typed all of this real slow ;-)

    fv



    Originally Posted by swattkidd
    Idk if its because i took the AP test this morning and my brain is drained like hell, but i cant understand what you are trying to say....

    Im guessing you want a IDE, so try out Netbeans, and check out the "Resources For Learning Java" sticky at the top for Resources for learning Java. Also if you are a real beginner you might want to just follow the "Getting Started" tutorials on Java Suns site and then compile things using the command line, not an IDE.

    Comments on this post

    • swattkidd disagrees : [0] LMAO >:O hahahahhahaha
    ...because that is the way we have always done it. We've been doing it like that for 80 Years! (How do we change that mindset?)
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    Rational Application Developer is built on Eclipse. RAD certainly isn't free, but Eclipse is, and the functionality is essentially identical. RAD adds a bunch of IBM bells and whistles, but chances are good that Eclipse will be enough to get you familiar with the environment. As far as a servlet container, Tomcat is free (and very good). Using Tomcat is similar to using Websphere insofar as they both conform to the Java EE specification; a web application you develop for one should deploy to the other, provided you haven't used container-specific code in your application. If you need a full Java EE container (for EJBs, web services, etc.), JBoss is free, as is GlassFish (Sun's app server). All of which will be fine for familiarizing yourself with Java EE on your own box. For a data layer, you can just use JDBC and SQL Server Express (also free).

    So there; all the free stuff you need to get started. That said, it sounds like -- given your stated level of experience -- Java EE may be a bit much to dive into off the bat. It's a complicated set of technologies. It will be well worth your while to stick to core Java SE until you're very comfortable with OOP and Java syntax.

    Best of luck!

    ~

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    • Nemi agrees
    Last edited by Yawmark; May 12th, 2007 at 10:41 AM.
    Yawmark
    class Sig{public static void main(String...args){\u0066or(int
    \u0020$:"v\"ʲ\"vΤ\"".to\u0043h\u0061rArray()
    )System./*goto/*$/%\u0126//^\u002A\u002Fout.print((char)(($>>
    +(~'"'&'#'))+('<'>>('\\'/'.')/\u002Array.const(~1)\*\u002F)));}}
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    Thanks for the info! This is one of those things that I really don't have any choice in. I've been programming for 13 + years so I'll just have o deal with it - just another language with a different environment. I'll search out Eclipse and Tomcat to start with. now are Tomcat, JBoss essentially just web servers like Apache or IIS? Not sure how all this fits together....

    thanks,

    fv




    Originally Posted by Yawmark
    Rational Application Developer is built on Eclipse. RAD certainly isn't free, but Eclipse is, and the functionality is essentially identical. RAD adds a bunch of IBM bells and whistles, but chances are good that Eclipse will be enough to get you familiar with the environment. As far as a servlet container, Tomcat is free (and very good). Using Tomcat is similar to using Websphere insofar as they both conform to the Java EE specification; a web application you develop for one should deploy to the other, provided you haven't used container-specific code in your application. If you need a full Java EE container (for EJBs, web services, etc.), JBoss is free, as is GlassFish (Sun's app server). All of which will be fine for familiarizing yourself with Java EE on your own box. For a data layer, you can just use JDBC and SQL Server Express (also free).

    So there; all the free stuff you need to get started. That said, it sounds like -- given your stated level of experience -- Java EE may be a bit much to dive into off the bat. It's a complicated set of technologies. It will be well worth your while to stick to core Java SE until you're very comfortable with OOP and Java syntax.

    Best of luck!

    ~
    ...because that is the way we have always done it. We've been doing it like that for 80 Years! (How do we change that mindset?)
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    If you're new to java, you might want to learn the language first, before starting programming businessy applications for it?
    Maybe read over this quickly before 'diving in' as mentioned before?

    Good luck...

    Comments on this post

    • Yawmark agrees
    • tfecw agrees
    • StevenC disagrees : When you work for a company you don't usually have a choice on what you program in. You use the language they tell you to.
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    You can download weblogic and use it for development/learning so I would imagine websphere would work the same way. If you want to use it in a production setting, you'll need to buy some licenses. Weblogic goes for 60k-90k per cpu*


    *source
    This article is from 03 so I have no idea what they go for now. I can certainly see them going up since they offer more goodies and the market has expanding, but on the flip side i can see it going down with .NET storming the scene and open source competitors catching up. At any rate I was just trying to point out its extremely expensive
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    I would imagine websphere would work the same way
    I wasn't previously aware of any developer/community editions of Websphere, but sure enough:

    http://www-128.ibm.com/developerwork...was/wasce.html


    ~
    Yawmark
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    \u0020$:"v\"ʲ\"vΤ\"".to\u0043h\u0061rArray()
    )System./*goto/*$/%\u0126//^\u002A\u002Fout.print((char)(($>>
    +(~'"'&'#'))+('<'>>('\\'/'.')/\u002Array.const(~1)\*\u002F)));}}
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    Originally Posted by tfecw
    I would imagine websphere would work the same way.
    It would have been great if Websphere worked like other application servers. I've worked with Weblogic for quite some time and working with WS now seems to be a PITA.

    Comments on this post

    • Yawmark agrees : With the PITA comment.
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    Originally Posted by Annie79
    It would have been great if Websphere worked like other application servers. I've worked with Weblogic for quite some time and working with WS now seems to be a PITA.
    I was thinking more along the lines of working the same way in terms of how they do their licenses.

    I havent had the opportunity to work with WS yet. Ive heard one or 2 weblogic devs say that WS is much better, but seeing how they havent actually used WS Im guessing its more a The grass is greener on the other side of the fence type of opinion.
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    To expand on my comment above, when you work for a company, you're tied to what they tell you to use.
    I came into the company I'm in now iwth a PHP, MySQL & C++ background and had to learn Java & Oracle administration from the ground up. Now, if it's a good company they'll give you the resources & lead time to pick the technology up. If you have a strong background in programming already, picking up a new language is (usually) not to difficult/time consuming.

    Comments on this post

    • nizack05 agrees
    • fractalvibes agrees : Absolutely the case. I am sure they have already spent a huge amount on this....
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    If you want more of an application server instead of a servlet container to write web applications in you can check out Apache Geronimo. (IBM has made several code contributions to the project) It comes with Apache Derby. Derby database is similar to DB2, which I'm guessing if you're running WebSphere your backing db is DB2.

    Geronimo has a really nice management console (once you install the server) and really good documentation (see link above).

    Just an FYI about WebSphere, in my experience WS is very picky, even between it's own versions, so you may run into issues on WS that you would never see on your local computer or testing env.

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    • Annie79 agrees
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    Thanks, though I've no idea. I come from an ASP/ASP.NET and PHP background and with each there is simply a server running a handler for those types and that is that, In Classic ASP I've written a number of VB 6 DLLs that are called from the ASP pages. So I am little baffled as to why there must be different types of Java servers depending upon the type of Java gizmos you intend to use???

    Yes, DB2 Z/OS and DB2 UDB are the databases we use. Derby I think is the open source version of IBM Cloudscape, probably similar to DB2 in some ways, but thinking it is somehow more Java-Centric?

    I wonder if there is a ` J2EE For .NET Developers` book out there to translate what some of these widgets are to equivalents in the ASP/ASP.NET world?

    thanks,

    fv



    Originally Posted by nizack05
    If you want more of an application server instead of a servlet container to write web applications in you can check out Apache Geronimo. (IBM has made several code contributions to the project) It comes with Apache Derby. Derby database is similar to DB2, which I'm guessing if you're running WebSphere your backing db is DB2.

    Geronimo has a really nice management console (once you install the server) and really good documentation (see link above).

    Just an FYI about WebSphere, in my experience WS is very picky, even between it's own versions, so you may run into issues on WS that you would never see on your local computer or testing env.
    ...because that is the way we have always done it. We've been doing it like that for 80 Years! (How do we change that mindset?)
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    Excellent - thanks! I downloaded and installed Eclipse and Apache Tomcat on my XP machine this weekend,but did not play around with due to yardwork and grilling duties ;-) I wonder if installing this community version of Websphere would introduce any incompatibilities - i.e. should Tomcat first be uninstalled? Or Eclipse(and then reinstalled)? I do recall reading something in the tutorial info on RAD that Websphere had to be installed before RAD, don't know if the same holds true in this case.

    I looked, and there seems to be a pretty nice assortment of Ubuntu packages for Eclipse. I shall inherit a 1.x GHZ machine in a couple of weeks, so I'll be loading the latest version of Ubuntu on that. And then Eclipse, etc. Amazing what Linux will do for older, itty bitty machines like this 333mhz thing I am running now!

    fv





    Originally Posted by Yawmark
    I wasn't previously aware of any developer/community editions of Websphere, but sure enough:

    http://www-128.ibm.com/developerwork...was/wasce.html


    ~
    ...because that is the way we have always done it. We've been doing it like that for 80 Years! (How do we change that mindset?)
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    eclipse is awesome, and doesn't matter what you install first, neither one depend on each other. You may also want to look at JBoss' IDE for Eclipse, http://labs.jboss.com/jbosside/ . It comes with a bunch of nice plugins (for jsp/html, xml, ect editors). It's pretty nice. (no need to have jboss installed, this way you don't have to deal with installing the usual plugins).

    If you're installing Ubuntu on a desktop I would suggest their stripped down x version. I run that on my 500 MHz computer and it's decent, but kinda slow, faster than running gnome desktop on it. With Ubuntu you can install eclipse from the application updater. Just do a search for eclipse and it should pop up, and all you have to do is click install.
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