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  1. Mad Scientist
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    Sometimes the choice is an ignorant one. Choosing something based on popularity alone is one such choice. Choosing a CMS is a responsibility - the cms will have a responsibility to the it powers, the developers implementing it, the site administrators and, the site owner and the site visitors.

    Doing something just because loads of other people do it is one of my biggest frustrations with people. It has lead to slavery, racism, sexism, wars, violence and genocide. You cannot assume that something is right just because others do it without repercussions.

    Wordpress is used by those who are unaware of its serious and fundamental architecture problems. Wordpress is NOT used by those who are aware of them (eg me).

    I use windows because I'm used to it. However, in recent years I have found it limiting in some respects so my servers deploy *nix systems. I would make a permanent switch to *nix but I don't know how to do the basic admin things that I've learned to do on windows - its a time and resources thing - i don't have the time to learn how to set up an email client on an ubuntu desktop...my time is better spent developing the software my company sells.

    Which brings us full circle to CMSs. There are people who can develop sites in wordpress, although WP does not have the flexibility for my needs. People can develop in Joomla (they've spent time learning Joomla). There are people who can develop sites in drupal (using black magic and witchcraft) and there are people who can develop in MODx because that's what they know too.

    Because each CMS takes a while to learn, people tend to stick with the first one they choose and persevere with it. I'd like to think that the original choice is made on some research, background info and suitability for purpose. MODx fits my needs 90% of the time; the others don't even come close to 10% of my needs. The choice is simple. The architecture may not be best practice, but it fits the implantation so IMO its ok.
    I said I didn't like ORM!!! <?php $this->model->update($this->request->resources[0])->set($this->request->getData())->getData('count'); ?>

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  2. #17
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    Originally Posted by Northie
    Doing something just because loads of other people do it is one of my biggest frustrations with people.
    Who does? Most people I know try a software in the shop (online or not) before getting a copy, especially expensive ones.

    It's a typical pitfall for a programmer to believe everybody else is stupid or less clever in any case.

    You can't say Microsoft, Apple (etc. the examples you mentioned earlier) were successful just because of stupid people getting their products. It's just not true.

    Originally Posted by Northie
    Wordpress is used by those who are unaware of its serious and fundamental architecture problems. Wordpress is NOT used by those who are aware of them (eg me).
    You still haven't mentioned what these serious and fundamental problems are for people like me that just need a simple content website up and running tomorrow morning. Joomla and Wordpress do their job pretty well and were amongst the first to do so and that's why they have been successful.

    Originally Posted by Northie
    MODx fits my needs 90% of the time; the others don't even come close to 10% of my needs.
    Now it really sounds like you are promoting this MODx A CMS I suppose?
  4. #18
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    Lost in code
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    You still haven't mentioned what these serious and fundamental problems are for people like me that just need a simple content website up and running tomorrow morning.
    Just to be clear, I did not say that there are serious and fundamental problems for someone who just needs a simple content website. The problems with the architecture still exist obviously, but they have very little affect on someone who is rolling out a blog in a day. This is why I still consider WordPress for use in static content sites and blogs. However, these problems make WordPress truly unsuitable for anything more complicated than that.

    I can give numerous examples just off the top of my head:
    - Deploying to multiple environments is extremely difficult because WordPress stores absolute paths all over the place in its database.
    - If you use the standard WordPress API to implement a complex site, you will almost certainly end up running ridiculous numbers of queries on every page load because the API is not conducive to caching and WordPress doesn't do much database caching on its own.
    - It stores a lot of data in its "posts" table that are not actually posts, and plugins are encouraged to abuse the posts table for storage of data that is in no way posts related.
    - It uses an entity-attribute-value database structure for post and user meta data, which is difficult to work with and generally disliked by sensible database designers (although sometimes necessary).
    - URL routing is an ugly mixture of WordPress routing using hard-coded rules and the posts table, and plugins just hijacking the request when they feel like it.
    - Rather than just containing settings data, its settings file actually bootstraps the entire application, requiring you to do an ugly work-around if you want to integrate your WordPress configuration with any other applications.
    - Its front-end code is basically a text-book example of how not to use global variables (read about "the loop" if you're not familiar with it).
    - Some parts of its API are designed in a way that is downright dangerous - for example, the function is_admin() does not actually indicate whether the user is an administrator or not, it just tells you whether the user is currently trying to access the admin panel. Beginners to WordPress use this function incorrectly all the time, and using it incorrectly is a major security problem.

    If I actually sat down and actually looked at the code and database I'm sure I could expand this list considerably.

    Microsoft Windows is the most popular operating system in the world. It has fundamental and serious problems. People use it, like Wordpress, because they're familiar with it and because nobody has ever been fired for choosing an "industry standard."
    It does have fundamental and serious problems, but you would have trouble convincing me that Linux and Mac don't have equally fundamental and serious problems. Particularly with the direction major Linux distros have been taking recently with their desktop environments (ie: KDE 4.0, Gnome 3, Unity).

    Comments on this post

    • ManiacDan agrees
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  6. #19
  7. Plays with fire
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    For me every CMS is a cancer. I inherited a MODx system that was hacked to dust faster than I could update it.

    I periodically see waves of scripts attempting to find WP and other sites for later attack.

    Besides all that, you have to find what works for you. If Joomla or any other CMS meets your needs, then go with it. For me, I dislike them simply because they're great right out of the box, but as soon as you need something it can't do, you either have to code it yourself or find a third-party add-on.

    With any changes to the core, you have to worry about the CMS breaking because of updates either to the CMS or to the add-on. That is, IMO, simply not worth the hassle.
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  8. #20
  9. Sarcky
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    Besides all that, you have to find what works for you. If Joomla or any other CMS meets your needs, then go with it. For me, I dislike them simply because they're great right out of the box, but as soon as you need something it can't do, you either have to code it yourself or find a third-party add-on.
    I made this point years ago on devshed and was nearly driven from the site entirely by an angry mob.

    Content Management Systems are for these classes of people:
    1) Non-professionals who want an easy website which they can maintain without knowing anything about programming. In this case, use whatever, they're all the same.

    2) Professionals working under contract to the people from #1. CMSes are good here because these web design firms can often automate things like upgrades and password resets.

    3) Professionals working on non-core websites. When I had to "whip up" a quick marketing website for my company, I used a CMS because we didn't have time or money for me to do it right.

    4) People under very tight time constraints. Take my example from #3, but make it the core product of a company. Sometimes a hacked CMS is all they can afford in terms of time and/or money. This use case is where most of the frustration against CMSes comes from, I think. Real professionals like the ones in this thread who are forced through various constraints to use something which isn't quite what they wanted, and then continuing to hack at it, revealing its multitudinous flaws, until they grow to loathe it like a cancer on their brain.

    But I could be wrong.
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  10. #21
  11. Mad Scientist
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    I like MODx, in case you hadn't guessed


    For us, the only thing MODx has not been able to help us with is an ecommerce site (we've tried - even with shop and cart type plugins there's still far too much work to do when you can get half-decent open source ecom solutions to run side-by-side). For everything else it is quick to deploy and 100% customisable.

    Oner thing I like the most is that you have to start by using your own HTML - you CANNOT build a site WITHOUT knowing HTML, CSS, JavaScript. Sure you could probably find a MODx template - but they're few and far between. Even if you bought a template you'd still have to go into the code to implement the template in the CMS.

    I also like the fact that it is so flexible you don't have to hack it. Take the navigation plugin, "wayfinder", for example: Out the box you get some semantic HTML based upon nested lists. classes are automatically added for first, active and last...BUT the micro-templates it uses for each element is completely controllable and can be ANYTHING You want. You can add other classes and attributes and have them merge with the wayfinder classes, you can even over ride the wayfinder classes (first, active, last) without hacking the plugin at a global or per-use level...and even get each element to run a snippet of your own PHP code if you want.

    From a client's perspective I can hide all that techie stuff too so they don't see it and can't access it.

    It is for reasons like this that MODx positions its self as a Content Management Framework

    I'm guessing Frank Grimes's MODx installation was either old (Evolution) or the developer didn't know how to use it properly. MODx 2+ (Revolution) is a complete re-write, but sticks to some grass roots principles.

    Yes, it uses EAV for all custom variables, but there is a plugin which allows you to create your own database tables and access them from within the framework

    Yes, it caches everything on the file system...but if you have memcache installed you can switch a system stetting to use that instead....have another caching mechanism?...then you can write a class for it using the framework and update the setting to use yours instead. Don't like caching? Then turn it off! have a huge site? Limit the caching. Your site, your choice

    Just don't try to build an e-commerce system with it

    Comments on this post

    • ManiacDan agrees : You're making me want to try MODx.
    I said I didn't like ORM!!! <?php $this->model->update($this->request->resources[0])->set($this->request->getData())->getData('count'); ?>

    PDO vs mysql_* functions: Find a Migration Guide Here

    [ Xeneco - T'interweb Development ] - [ Are you a Help Vampire? ] - [ Read The manual! ] - [ W3 methods - GET, POST, etc ] - [ Web Design Hell ]
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