Page 3 - [NEW USERS] - How to post a question.

I would like to say that I wish different forums had rules like these.

Good job and enforcing it too!! it sure makes looking up things alot better!

(UNIX,*BSD,Linux) people should consider getting the PHP docs' sources via CVS and using scripts/make_man.php to get manpages of the functions etc.

(Btw, the script needs updating and the examples' conversion needs fixing. Would any of the PHP gurus here feel inclined to do that?)

Another thing that has been bothering me lately: Please do not resurect old threads solely for the purpose of spamming. You will only make it harder for readers to discern what posts are new and relevant. Thank you.

Going along with Joe4Life´s last post:

Do not post "I have the same problem". People are looking for answers here, this is no "anonymous phpholics group".

There is a button down the page that says "Subscribe to this thread" that you can use if you are looking for the same thing.

PS. This thread should be updated. I think, JeffCT (or another Mod) should collect all the usable infos from the other posts here and put it into the first post or the newbies will be too lazy to read the full three pages (or who knows how big it will grow in the future?)

AND when someone post a reply--aways reply. This cannot be stressed enough. If it works for you, say as much, if it does not work for you, say as much as well.

Port

but I'm sure I'm guilty of breaking all the rules.

This should be a no brainer but it assumes that you're going to get search results that make sense or are usable. I think most of the issues have been addressed but addressed from only one side.

I'd like to add that I'm often more frustrated with the posted "answers" than the posted questions. So what's wrong with the answers?

Well, how about the jerks who take over a thread, wander off on a different topic, or focus on irrelevant minutia. Give me a break.

How about the geniuses who "Answer" a question and THEN say they don't have enough information. Jeez!!!

I've searched for my questions and, as to be expected, have typically found several threads that might be what I'm looking for. Only, after I’ve wasted a lot of time wading through all of the "junk," I’m no closer to the answer. Instead of answers, I may find links that used to go somewhere but which are now dead. I may find questions that were never resolved or questions where the answer is never documented. I may find nothing of substance.

Search first is a good idea in theory but so many threads end without an answer that the impetus is all wrong. I don't think people would choose to post a question and wait for an answer if they could get the answer immediately. Why would they?

Unfortunately, the flaws in searching are often sufficient to offset the benefit of, or at least the motivation for, searching.

Behavior is predictable. People will follow the most efficient path...but it has to be the most efficient in fact; in other words, the most efficient in theory, won't do.

Would people be more likely to take the time to search past postings if those searches were productive? Of course they would!

Unfortunately searches are often not very productive and so the result is just as predictable. People who’ve searched, and read, and reached one dead end after another, are more likely to do only a cursory search, if any, in the future and then get straight to posting.

So what's the answer? Make searching more productive by making the threads more productive.

How? Just set up permissions so the person who asks the question can determine if an answer to their question is relevant? Give them "ownership" and you can expect them to behave differently. Ownership does that…it’s predictable.

When someone asks a question. As long as their question remains unanswered, they can be considered motivated to keep their thread in play. Why? For the same reason they posted in the first place. They want an answer!

So how would someone keep their question in play? They’d do it by keeping it free of extraneous, irrelevant, or bad advice. If a thread is clean, it’s more likely to get new replies.

If someone gives the wrong answer, let the original poster strike it from their thread...it's wrong and irrelevant. If someone changes the subject, let the poster strike that off too.

Improving the forum requires us to understand why someone posts a question in the first place and, of course, why they would come to the forum looking for answers. Is it about learning from others mistakes? Again, theory might say it is but, in practice, it isn’t.

If there were two sets of forums…one forum with all the wrong answers--a virtual gold mine of failed attempts-- and the other, with all the right answers. Which one do you think people would find more useful? Where do you think people would go? I can’t speak for everyone but I make enough mistakes on my own; hence, I’m very unmotivated when it comes to learning from others’ mistakes.

So why keep all the replies that fail to work or answer the original question? In theory, so we can learn from someone’s mistakes. In practice, there is no reason to. They just fill up space and undermine the forum’s affiance.

So how inefficient is the forum? Let me explain with an example. Someone posts a question. Someone attempts to answer, The answer doesn't work because, in his/her rush to write the original question, the poster left something out.

Now, the original poster would have to either edit their original posting, in which case everyone would assume that the answer given was for the newly re-worded question, or post the question again, as a reply, in which case we now have two replies and no answers.

So the poster finally gets the question right...or so they think until Mr Google comes along and points out that someone already asked the question. Mr. Google even posts a link to the other question but unfortunately, while the question was similar, the answers offered, if any, don't work.

Now the poster has to post another reply explaining that the other question was never answered, or the links were dead, or the answers don't work, or whatever. So, we have four replies and still no answer.

And this goes on and on and on until the thread dies.


But if the poster had control to maintain their thread. Their original question would remain, as edited, with no follow on junk. Easy for someone to see that it hasn't been answered yet. Easy for someone with the same question to see that someone has their question pending. Easy for someone with answers to see that nobody has figured it out yet.

Then what about those questions that never get answered. Do you think the person asking them just dropped the project they were working on? I doubt it.

What I suspect happens, and happens a lot, is that the person who asked the question goes back and dinks with their problem until they figure it out. Unfortunately, we’ll never know this if they don’t close out their thread.

As it now stands, what is their motivation to go back and close a thread? Not much, particularly once their question has sunk into an abyss.

What if everyone who posted a question had an obligation to close their threads?

Even if every thread were closed out with a simple "Answered", "Not Answered", "Gave Up", etc. the person searching could start backwards, finding out the outcome, before reading through everything in a wasted effort to get an answer. The result: less random and far more efficient. More importantly, the likelihood finding something by searching is greatly increased and so is the likilhood of searching.

So how do you get people to close their threads? Give them a time limit and then Email them until it's closed! If they never respond, yank their permission under the terms of service agreement.

Just like that.

Those "jerks" might just approach your questions from a different point of view. I'm reading quite a lot of posts here and I rarely see really irrelevant things.

Providing enough information is the thread "owner's" responsibility. Where important points are left open, guessing or choosing one of several possible options to suggest a solution is legitimate. And THEN one would point out that the initial info was insufficient.

Then either your questions are very original or your search skills are not 1337 enough.

Because searching is actually more work than just writing down your problem once and waiting for replies.

Nope. They follow the path on which they'll have to do the least amount of work.

Of course not. See above.

Many (although fortunately not all and probably not even the majority) of those who ask questions in this forum have not enough knowledge to be able to differ between ways that don't work, ways that work and ways that work well.

Would a summary of a PHP manual page count as good advice if someone asks something that's documented there? Now how about a link? Now how about an RTFM? All of those would lead to the desired result. However, many people wouldn't even follow the link and hardly anyone these days knows what RTFM means _and_ takes it seriously

To make clear my point, the OP is not always qualified to do that.

Because they document the way an answer was found. Something that should be very instructive for the newbies, if they cared to read that stuff.

Mr. Google is often right - the question has has already been answered elsewhere. What the OP would now have to do is adapt the answer found somewhere else to the own problem. Which implies work, which some people are scared of.

Iow, the poster leaves out one small but important detail. Someone posts a solution which doesn't work because of that detail. That gets deleted. We're back at the initial state. Someone posts a solution which doesn't work because of that detail. It gets deleted. We're back at the original state. Ad infinitum.

One more thing to be considered is that a forum is for communicating. There's not much communications when every thread is kept at a maximum length of two posts. For me there would not remain much motivation to reply to questions.

It would be even better if they posted the solution which they found.

A lot of people would not post in first place.

Note to the mods: I know this is not supposed to be a discussion sort of thread, but I think in this case it's important to comment on the issues mentioned by EddieFoyJr, since some of them seem to be quite common.

You are quite right about posting with an appropriate subject heading, will do so in future. Thanks for other tips as well.

Miranda

Are these rules? It is *very good* to see it written out, especially since it comes in such clear language, but I believe most of it does apply elsewhere and not because they are universal forum rules but rather more netiquette and common sense.

Much attention in this thread to the importance of proper English, and rightly so! It is then funny to note that nobody corrected this error on page 1: The original error was wrong, and the original correction was correct. Almost like a mathemathical law rather than a forum rule, the next correction must be wrong!
Would spackbace care to consider taking the end of this sentence: "Gramatical errors are my biggest pet peeve." and see what makes a better subject? The order of words that the original poster chose, put the emphasis* where it should be: on the fact they are errors, and not on the fact they are his peeve. But that doesn't change the structural role of the words. *(psychological grammar rule: the end of a sentence is better remembered as it 'rings on' for longer)
I am not English but there is a word to describe what the other part of the sentence is (lijdend voorwerp in Dutch, and the English who are so patient with non-native speakers, excercise another bit of netiquette); if that word is the "object" mentioned in the post, then here is an example of a sentence where the object is at the beginning and the subject at the end.

Just to stay on-topic (staying on-topic itself being a possible topic in this thread), be warned that all the help that people may offer you is "paid for" by people just like you, who give time and energy to replying to asked questions, raised issues and polls without being exactly experts themselves...

Just one other quick reminder to n00bs (hell, to *all* developers) - a quick "thank you" in a post where you've been helped or via PM/email is *really* appreciated. After all, we're posting suggestions/edits/comments/ideas completely gratis - some minute sign of gratitude is in order !

hi,
iam using maskeditbox(vb6.0) everything works fine except one problem...that is
when i type a date in the control of format "MM/DD/YY"
for example: 12/20/2003 so when i use back space in between the date eg:2 that is DD the 2 gets deleted and the date format is changing like this 12/02/003 .....so do any help me out to solve this like i don't want to chnage the order when i use back space r delete it should be --/--/----
navya

Post your message in the Visual Basic forum - this is a forum for PHP questions.