Page 3 of 3 First 123
  • Jump to page:
    #31
  1. fork while true;
    Devshed God 1st Plane (5500 - 5999 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    5,538
    Rep Power
    1051
    Originally Posted by Adrastea0413
    So, you're saying that Java is a scripting language and scripting languages cannot be used for systems programming. Therefore, by your argument, Java cannot be used for systems programming.

    JavaOS and JavaStation... QED

    Your argument is a logical fallacy.
    He's just some frustrated 60 year old that's upset because fortran isn't the rage anymore...
  2. #32
  3. No Profile Picture
    rebel with a cause
    Devshed God 1st Plane (5500 - 5999 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    The Batsh!t Crazy State.
    Posts
    5,817
    Rep Power
    3462
    God I wish I had the code for the robot controllers we wrote in java. Oh btw, that's everything from the servo controllers all the way up to the GUI.
    Dear God. What is it like in your funny little brains? It must be so boring.
  4. #33
  5. No Profile Picture
    rebel with a cause
    Devshed God 1st Plane (5500 - 5999 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    The Batsh!t Crazy State.
    Posts
    5,817
    Rep Power
    3462
    Oh and by the way. Java is a Programming Language.
    programming language
    n.

    An artificial language used to write instructions that can be translated into machine language and then executed by a computer.

    Comments on this post

    • LinuxPenguin agrees : Owned
    Dear God. What is it like in your funny little brains? It must be so boring.
  6. #34
  7. 'fie' on me, allege-dly
    Devshed Supreme Being (6500+ posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    in da kitchen ...
    Posts
    12,889
    Rep Power
    6444
    There are low level and high level languages, scripting languages would be at the high end, because of the abstraction it offers, and seperation from 'real programming' at the OS level.

    If as a systems programmer, you're content to herd ones and zeroes up and down system buses, then fair play, you've got a job you enjoy. I'm happy for you, no, really, I am.

    I enjoy my job, which depends on a good bit of perl scripting, for both administrative tasks, and web sites. I'm happy with what Perl offers me, can't you just be happy for me ?

    In a previous life most of my systems operations depended on DCL scripts on a VMS platform, but because I didn't write the backup system in assembly for the platform, by your definition, I'm not a software writer. I was a COBOL/Pascal programmer at the time BTW.

    If I can't call my scripts 'software', then what can I call them ... floppyware, because they're not hardware or firmware ...
    --Ax
    without exception, there is no rule ...
    Handmade Irish Jewellery
    Targeted Advertising Cookie Optout (TACO) extension for Firefox
    The great thing about Object Oriented code is that it can make small, simple problems look like large, complex ones


    09 F9 11 02
    9D 74 E3 5B
    D8 41 56 C5
    63 56 88 C0
    Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
    -- Jamie Zawinski
    Detavil - the devil is in the detail, allegedly, and I use the term advisedly, allegedly ... oh, no, wait I did ...
    BIT COINS ANYONE
  8. #35
  9. Hello World :)
    Devshed Frequenter (2500 - 2999 posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Hull, UK
    Posts
    2,537
    Rep Power
    69
    Originally Posted by Randux
    It's very clear what a scripting language is, even if you don't know where it came from. There are operational tasks that administrators do, and these interpreted "scripting languages" are designed to make quick work of repetitive tasks.

    ...

    I have no idea what you're talking about. LISP was not ever, and is not now, a scripting language.

    ...

    Right, so what was your point?

    I agree with the first part of your statement- historically one of the strengths of scripting languages has been high level interface to shell services.

    ...

    If you care about doing things properly, then it's not enough that when you press the button you get your coffee. Some people like to have control over what code gets executed because they understand what's going on. I thought we already had this discussion in another thread. Wasn't it you who pointed out that when you know more (like a mechanic) it makes you a better driver? Why the sudden about-face? The fact is that this is exactly the issue- scripting languages are special purpose tools- but now they're being misapplied generally. The average guy (let's say 99.9999% of all users) coding an app in a scripting language has no idea what happens after he presses enter.

    You have to choose the right tool for the job. If all you have is a hammer, then everything begins to look like a nail.
    That was the point! Lisp fits the definition of a scripting language but you flat out say that itís and I agree entirely.


    Note: For the record, you started this argument right here, and from what I can see youíre the only one loosing there temper.


    Python doesnít sync with your definition exactly, since the system interface is defined through libraries and not built in. Other such mismatches should be enough to make you stop and think.

    The whole idea of this post was to convey that no one really agrees on what this term means hence if youíre going to start throwing it around youíll get into arguments. In fact "scripting language" seems to be becoming a synonym for high level, agile or dynamic languages in the absence of any such agreement.

    Since this term is misunderstood, and badly defined it should be dissolved. End of the story. Once you let this go youíll be ready to learn Ė you canít learn while you look down your nose at something.


    On another note, yes that was I. My opinions change quite regularly because I donít think that I know everything.

    Where I do agree that it is advantageous to have a good understanding of the machine this is less important when you have several layers of abstraction between you and the hardware.

    To continue the earlier analogy: if your sat in your room controlling the car through a joystick, then there is only so much you can gain from understanding the car. At this level you canít really listen to its sounds or feel it under your feet so a better approach is to adopt a different way of thinking.

    The same applies to high level languages. Itís simply less useful consider the machine when your sat right back there. This is the major difference between having some toilet paper layered over the machine as with C, and having a living tree grow around it as with Lisp.


    Itís been said that the way to think about anything hard is to know what not to think about. Perhaps thatís the value of such languages .

    (please also note that if you need real safety then lower level languages aren't the way to go; so you don't seem to be using the right tool for the job).

    Later,

    Mark.
    programming language development: www.netytan.com Ė Hula

  10. #36
  11. fork while true;
    Devshed God 1st Plane (5500 - 5999 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    5,538
    Rep Power
    1051
    Mark: ESR once said `If you gave the car driver the option to manually fire the spark plugs, he probably wouldn't be able to turn it much to his advantage.`. That's exactly the way it is with abstracting the underbelly.
  12. #37
  13. 'fie' on me, allege-dly
    Devshed Supreme Being (6500+ posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    in da kitchen ...
    Posts
    12,889
    Rep Power
    6444
    undrbly <-- "I was what ..?" as said the other guy ..
    Last edited by Axweildr; July 7th, 2006 at 07:57 PM.
    --Ax
    without exception, there is no rule ...
    Handmade Irish Jewellery
    Targeted Advertising Cookie Optout (TACO) extension for Firefox
    The great thing about Object Oriented code is that it can make small, simple problems look like large, complex ones


    09 F9 11 02
    9D 74 E3 5B
    D8 41 56 C5
    63 56 88 C0
    Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
    -- Jamie Zawinski
    Detavil - the devil is in the detail, allegedly, and I use the term advisedly, allegedly ... oh, no, wait I did ...
    BIT COINS ANYONE
  14. #38
  15. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    Devshed Newbie (0 - 499 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    48
    Rep Power
    12
    Originally Posted by Axweildr
    There are low level and high level languages, scripting languages would be at the high end, because of the abstraction it offers, and seperation from 'real programming' at the OS level.
    Right you are. And this was really part of the intent of my original post was to say that traditional programming languages and scripting languages are birds of a different feather. We certainly had some nice scripting languages to choose from in the early years- but not as many as we do nowadays. What I really wanted to talk about was how many people don't understand the difference.

    I thought I would get responses from the rest of the group saying "yeah, we know what you mean!" But instead everyone went mad. What I write here in response to your post is to try to answer your questions which are fair. Other things I'll write are simply to do everything in one place rather than create another posts, so please consider that not everything I say here is directed to you even though I'm quoting your post.

    I suppose it doesn't pay to try to answer the rest of this lot of bloody uncivilised hyenas, but your post may help us clarify a few things. I've said this before here but few seem to be able to read So I'll say them again.

    Originally Posted by Axweildr
    I enjoy my job, which depends on a good bit of perl scripting, for both administrative tasks, and web sites. I'm happy with what Perl offers me, can't you just be happy for me ?
    It's quite plain that skilled people can do brilliant things with Perl. But I don't imagine that there are brilliant Perl coders who know nothing but Perl. Someone becomes a programmer by learning his platform(s) thoroughly over many years, by coding in all sorts of languages- scripting languages, assembly languages, HLLs, anything he can get his hands on, and in the process he learns about what software really is, how it works, and how to make it the best he can. As you go on to say, you know several other languages (and most likely more than even those). This is what I was pointing out, that becoming a programmer means learning all the while and not just a person who only knows PHP and not only can't he tell you what's different between PHP and C++ from inside, but he doesn't even know what he doesn't know.

    A smart person will also be respectful of people his senior- just on general principle of being a civilised person this should be so- but if not for that, then even for his own selfish purposes that he realises that someone who's been around quite a bit longer and survived in this business must have a trick or two to share.

    I learnt not by arguing with people and making a royal *** of myself such as was done by a number of <people> in this thread, but by listening carefully to their advice, looking at their code, taking the good and leaving the bad behind, and asking quite a lot of questions. It seems that all this is lost.

    None of what I'm saying here is the first I've said it this thread. I wrote earlier that I was trying to draw a useful distinction between applications and systems software. And I remembered that this view was the general view which I adopted from the people I learnt programming from, not that I invented any terminology on my own.

    Scripting languages are tremendously useful, and as I also noted, I myself have written complete systems using them. Still it pays for people in the business to be aware of the major differences between traditional and more powerful (= compiled) languages as opposed to scripting languages. And people who know only scripting languages don't have to deal with issues that are dealt with in software (= systems software).

    It's also quite plain that many people have a complete tool box which consists of all sorts of tools for the job. Any good programmer must have all he needs to do various jobs on the platform(s) he lives with. In your job Perl is the proper tool. My original post was only to draw a contrast between people who have a whole toolbox full of tools and people who don't know what the difference between hammers and screwdrivers are.

    If I wanted to say the Perl coders suck, I would have just said it plainly. I don't believe that, as some of my best friends are Perl wizards

    Originally Posted by Axweildr
    In a previous life most of my systems operations depended on DCL scripts on a VMS platform, but because I didn't write the backup system in assembly for the platform, by your definition, I'm not a software writer. I was a COBOL/Pascal programmer at the time BTW.
    We always called those guys applications coders. I've had jobs of that sort, as I've also mentioned. I've been an applications coder and a systems software guy. When I was writing COBOL we all knew quite a lot about our systems. Most of the better COBOL people at the firm knew what the compiler generated and could distinguish between poorer and better choices for doing a particular thing in code. We could read storage dumps and find our working storage, and we knew what the hardware layout was. We didn't have awfully too much regard for the person who didn't know (and worse, wasn't interested) in learning these things. All these sorts of bits are the road to becoming a complete programmer, don't you agree?

    Originally Posted by Axweildr
    If I can't call my scripts 'software', then what can I call them ... floppyware, because they're not hardware or firmware ...
    Apps? Applications?

    I wrote before that it's certainly software as opposed to hardware, but that there is a still more specific way to break things into separate categories such as systems software (abbreviated "software") and applications software (abbreviated "apps.") And this is the way I was taught to look at it.

    I suppose what people are reacting to is the reality that apps are not on the technical level as systems software. Not everybody enjoys doing the same things. And the world certainly needs much more applications software than systems software.

    Yours is the last post I'm responding to in this thread. I was expecting a pleasant discussion but what I got was a bloody enraged (and largely clueless) mob. It's obvious that what happened is that too many people can't discuss things in a detached manner and suddenly wondered if their manhood was in question. That wasn't my intent. Even when people disagree which is certainly productive and fine, it's not necessary to conduct yourselves as a disrespectful, nasty lot of scornful hyenas. That just proves that you've lost your nerve and are on the defensive. And it says a lot about you and where your lives are going.

    On the other hand, pleasantly, there were some thoughtful questions and discussions going on. If questions like the Axweilder asked now had been asked earlier before the mob started with their hysterical tantrums, perhaps this unpleasant business could have been avoided.

    To all of you who've conducted yourselves like men, good show. To the rest of you, you'll wind up with tyre marks on your faces with a pint in your hand

    Comments on this post

    • netytan disagrees : self important. Can you lecture on arrogance when you refuse to accept the young may know what they're doing?
    Last edited by SimonGreenhill; July 9th, 2006 at 12:59 AM. Reason: vulgarity removed
  16. #39
  17. fork while true;
    Devshed God 1st Plane (5500 - 5999 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    5,538
    Rep Power
    1051
    The way I'd like to put this is `go <impregnate> yourself`, but my manners tell me better.

    Since you're so senior (try senile), clearly you don't need or want our input, and perhaps you should take my original advice...

    Respect will come to you when you treat others with it, you won't get it by pointing out to people that you're more important than them, especially on an open forum like this where you have absolutely no influence over anything.

    Anyway, I'm more important than the lot of you, so I'm going to write my very important memoirs now... :|
    Last edited by SimonGreenhill; July 9th, 2006 at 01:01 AM. Reason: vulgarity removed
  18. #40
  19. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    Devshed Novice (500 - 999 posts)

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    596
    Rep Power
    23
    Originally Posted by LinuxPenguin
    Anyway, I'm more important than the lot of you, so I'm going to write my very important memoirs now... :|
    Memoirs? Don't tell me about memoirs. In my day we carved our memoirs out of stone with a sponge while our elders and betters took in turns to beat us with a stick. And we were bloody grateful for it too.

    Comments on this post

    • codergeek42 agrees : Heheheheheh.
    • netytan agrees : hahahhahah
    • LinuxPenguin agrees : legend, leg end
  20. #41
  21. (retired)
    Devshed Supreme Being (6500+ posts)

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    The Laboratory
    Posts
    10,101
    Rep Power
    0
    Thread split from "What Languages do you know? and vulgarity cleaned up a little bit.

    --Simon
  22. #42
  23. Contributing User
    Devshed Beginner (1000 - 1499 posts)

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,137
    Rep Power
    173
    Use the best tool for the job. Thankfully we have more than just hammers today.

    Of course it's nice to know about other tools/languages but not everyone has the time/inclination. The great thing about open source is that often some people will port the best ideas of one language to another (or write an api binding) so not everyone needs to be familiar with every language yet, over time, they get many of the advantages.
  24. #43
  25. Commie Mutant Traitor
    Devshed Intermediate (1500 - 1999 posts)

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    Posts
    1,806
    Rep Power
    1570
    The term 'scripting language' denotes usage, not to the structure of a language,it's status as compiled or interpreted (though script languages are generally interpreted ones), or it's putative performance or lack thereof.

    The main difference between a 'script' and a 'program' is that scripts are generally 'glue' or support for larger programs, meant to automate things normally done through the program's or system's main interface. A 'scripting language' is simply a programming language which is used primarily for this purpose, and may have specific features to support it.

    However, any language may be used for scripting (for example, Scheme is the basis of both Script-Fu and GUILE, while C was often used for CGI 'scripts' about 10 years ago), and any scripting language (including ones intended strictly for the purpose, such as JCL or the various Unix shell languages) can be used for non-scripting programs. See this post for a longer explanation (though my views have changed somewhat since I wrote that).
    Last edited by Schol-R-LEA; July 16th, 2006 at 02:17 PM.
    Rev First Speaker Schol-R-LEA;2 JAM LCF ELF KoR KCO BiWM TGIF
    #define KINSEY (rand() % 7) λ Scheme is the Red Pill
    Scheme in Short ē Understanding the C/C++ Preprocessor
    Taming Python ē A Highly Opinionated Review of Programming Languages for the Novice, v1.1

    FOR SALE: One ShapeSystem 2300 CMD, extensively modified for human use. Includes s/w for anthro, transgender, sex-appeal enhance, & Gillian Anderson and Jason D. Poit clone forms. Some wear. $4500 obo. tverres@et.ins.gov
  26. #44
  27. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    Devshed Intermediate (1500 - 1999 posts)

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    1,585
    Rep Power
    1373
    Originally Posted by Schol-R-LEA
    The term 'scripting language' denotes usage, not to the structure of a language,it's status as compiled or interpreted (though script languages are generally interpreted ones), or it's putative performance or lack thereof.
    Almost all modern languages are compiled to an intermediate form such as bytecodes which are then interpreted. This is true of both script languages such as Python and Ruby, and modern "system" languages such as Java and C#. Even old languages such as Pascal compiled to p-code, and the first M$ C/C++ compilers used to have a 'generate p-code' option, while C++.NET now compiles to CLR bytecodes.

    IMHO the distinction between compiled and interpreted is now completely meaningless.

    Dave
Page 3 of 3 First 123
  • Jump to page:

IMN logo majestic logo threadwatch logo seochat tools logo