January 7th, 2002, 10:04 PM
Better late then never (this reply).
I don't think the real issue here is sharing the project (yet), that is, the backend. We'll deal with that once we get rolling.
That's actually a cool name the more I think about it. (Assuming Randy doesn't have any objection, hard to tell from his post)
Name: Time to vote on this. Perhaps somebody should start a new thread with a poll souly to vote for the name (list generated by names said in here)
Where will the project be hosted?
I think SepodatiCreations' idea of putting it on sourceforge, at least at first, and then maybe move it off is a good idea.
How does someone participate?
I figured there would be a system like so:
Users register. This is everybody -- admin's general site users (that wish to use interactive things) -- everybody. Then people can submit ideas about things that either they want to write about or they want us to write about. If they want to write about it, they can send in a draft or a synopsis at the very least. Once the article 'idea' is approved, they can be given access to the admin system (using their already username and password) and given access to that particular part of the site to post their article and do things like moderate comments for that article. Of course there will be people that will have access to all things on the site (an access system that goes from 'root'-level all the way down to a user only have access to post one article in one place. Perhaps the on-timers shouldn't even be given access to the site (that is, people only posting one article), but a staff member can post it and have the system assign the article as from that user (so that they get all credit and things like that are registered to their account)
The code library and such would be totally open. People can submit code and it would go to a queue where a staff member checks to make sure its not porn or spam, then gives it the ok. Of course the code library would have features like voting and comments, but that's another topic.
I couldn't agree more.
BTW, perhaps we should get into a situation where we can get more direct dialog with each other (instead of waiting a day or two for replies on a forum). Anybody here use irc? If so, any recommendations for where we can have our 'home channel' for the site so we can talk about things? (of course, it would be nice to have a name first :))
January 7th, 2002, 10:54 PM
I'm a big IRC fan, although finding a good server isn't the easiest. My favorite IRC servers have been the ones I've setup myself on a linux box. Short of that I've used my IPPs. I've also used something called PlanetZ a couple of years ago, but I'm not sure they're even still arround. This is where I think they ended up but I'm not sure. Best thing still is to setup a server on a linux box, it doesn't use too much bandwidth.
The only other thing about IRC is it seems as if, judging my posting habits, we all lead rather different schedules, so although IRC may be in realtime, getting people there may not be as easy as we may like.
What about a Majordormo style list? I know its pretty much like a forum, except that email is a bit more of a "push" technology in that my email gets checked several times an hour but I only get to the forums once or twice a day. (Yes, I do know you can subscribe to a thread.) Just a thought.
Is it just me or is it cold in here?
January 7th, 2002, 11:53 PM
Good idea (majordomo list). Perhaps I'll set one up somewhere. If we're going to do this on sourceforge, we could just use their system to do this type of thing.
If we can settle on a project name, I'll get registration started for it all.
January 8th, 2002, 06:54 AM
just make sure you pronounce it dee-vel-ol-ogy, instead of dev-il-ol-ogy...
January 8th, 2002, 07:12 AM
This is my first post here, although I have been following this thread. I like the idea, but there are some things I think you should be careful about:
- Don't try to cover too much topics. I think you should try to choose one or two topics that will be covered in depth, as Devshed has chosen for web development(or maybe it has just grown this way).
- Do not get too high expectations, it will take a while to start the first site, if you don't want to have a béta site. I'm currently working on a Dutch java site called Javahova. We've been busy for about 2 months now(with 3 coders and a designer), and we ecpect to launch the site in two months.
- Use a core team of developers, with a max of about 5-6, not too much, because managing all the people can be difficult.
- Don't spend too much time discussing trivial things like the name. Start building the site, don't wait.
- Divide the tasks, and let the developer working on that task decide on the problems he encounters. If you try to agree on everything, with 6 people, this can consume too much time, which can even completely screw up a project.
About the name: develovers.net sounds good to me, it's catchy.
As I'm working on another site myself, I will not help you writing the code. I would like to write some articles, when I have the time.
Some people, when confronted with a problem, think “I know, I'll use regular expressions.” Now they have two problems. - Jamie Zawinski, in comp.lang.emacs
January 8th, 2002, 11:08 AM
Articles and community site
Maybe Randy didn't make this clear, but we are very open to getting articles from the community, and we always have been. In fact for a long time there (about 2 years), we had a "call for articles" up on the front page, but not many responded.
You may submit articles to us if you like. We really would like to have more content. Do realize that we have the right to review any submitted articles, etc.
If you are interested, you can submit articles to firstname.lastname@example.org
We are planning to start work on a community site (this has been in our plans for a while now) where anyone can submit any article they would like, and we are open to having any interested partys in the community work with us on this.
My ideas for the site go along the lines of building it using Zope's Content Management Framework but I'm certainly open to other ideas.
Any thoughts about any of this?
Last edited by ZeUs; January 8th, 2002 at 11:10 AM.
January 8th, 2002, 11:44 AM
I agree to a certain level. Being over ambitious can hurt us, but I don't think it matters to much if we slowly build up a few sections while going faster on others.
We're only 'expecting' to have fun with this . Not like this is causing us anything but coding time -- something we'd (or at least I'd) be wasting on something else anyway.
I started developing the backend for this site before I even started this tread. We need a name so that we can setup a sourceforge project, get a domain (if needed) and get a design going.
Seems to me that "develology" is the best name so far. Any objections to this?
And ZeUs, asking people to submit free articles to a site that pays all of its other authors is sort of like Microsoft asking for people to develop their applications for free, and them let them sell it. Its not that we want to get paid to do things, but the thought of "doing it for nothing" while others are getting paid tends to put people off. Its just psychological thing. Besides, I know at least I didn't get a reply the one or two times I emailed you guys (well got a reply once, but no followups to my followup email). The other site sounds like a good idea though.
Last edited by JonLed; January 8th, 2002 at 11:47 AM.
January 8th, 2002, 03:48 PM
I just read the whole thread, yes, the whole thread and I like this idea very much.
Having a different level user system sounds like a good idea, also. I like that idea in particular.
I am very willing to write articles in PHP (any any language I may learn later) for no charge.
I wish I had read this thread earlier. This community vision has been bubbeling in my head now since I started reading this thread and it sounds like it could be very successful.
I'll start up a template once I post this. I have ideas for that also.
Quick, think of something geeky to say before they catch on!
is your friend!
January 8th, 2002, 10:52 PM
Well, first off, I think that the sooner we can get on something, sourceforge or otherwise, the better. It seems to me as if this is growing rather quickly and it would probably help if the different threads of this conversation were spun on their own threads. For instance a thread on the name, a thread on article ideas, a thread on the backend, etc. That's not to say we should fill DevShed's forums with threads, but rather that we are going to need our own forum.
Second, I can only speak for myself, but I believe that the best way to make a system, whether it be our CMS backend or otherwise, is to have many eyes examining the code for vulnerabilites. Never mind the fact that many CMS's have tried to make something that works and fails. We've all heard the horror stories of 45 MySQL queries for the index with some CMS's. So, what I'm getting at is a question: once we have the facilites to do so, will the engine code be up on a CVS server? And as an auxilary to that, is the CMS going to be released at GPL itself? After all, what better way to start a code gallery than with that?
Now if I can go off on a tangent here... (And this is a complete tangent. So if you're in a rush you don't have to bother reading it. The thread is long enough as it is, I know.) <tangent> Code really is more of an art than a science. Just recall the last time you chrashed between saves, was the replacement code identical? And as with any art, you get better the more you look at "good" art. For me, one of the best ways to learn a new language or somethign new about a language is to look at "good code." I won't go so far as to say that reading good code is as good as reading a good book, but its close. Sometimes the best way to learn how to write a new script/program is to look at the code, and follow it through its logic, of several different scripts that have components of what you want. Then don't copy, don't merge, the two but imitate them. Recreate it in the image you choose. In other words, a code gallery (a rose my any other name smells as sweet) is a wonderful thing. </tangent>
Last edited by IceMan; January 8th, 2002 at 11:01 PM.
Is it just me or is it cold in here?
January 9th, 2002, 12:55 AM
Already working on this, more to follow.
We're obviously going to create our own CMS. No more questions about this. But considering we want to open the site before version 3 (which many software packages take to become secure), I'd say we need to keep the source to the site itself locked up for at least a while; while we're still working out bugs.
Tangent reply: that's why we're doing all of this in the first place
January 9th, 2002, 05:21 PM
To Zeus and Randy...
1) If you're open to article submissions, have you, or could you, draw up some guidelines for potential authors. There are many ways of writing coding articles, and it saves writers a lot of time knowing what sort of style, layout and policy to follow in their article.
2) When you say you'd like to get the wider community involved in the "community project", how much involvement would that be? Would the project be run as a CVS project, where the community can constantly contribute to the code, or would it be a case of the community sending code to you guys, and DevShed putting the code into the finished app. Also, would you release the code under the GPL, or would you keep it for financial use?
It still seems to me that both parties, devshed and community, are too vague about their objectives to be able to agree and merge. So I think it's best if both parties draw up working examples, policy guidelines etc. that can be compared, and if both parties share enough common goals then the projects should merge. Or does anybody have other more serious objections to running it with Devshed? I certainly don't - I think it'd be ideal in the long run if our goals were the same... more coverage, visitors, less obscurity (by far the biggest challenge to any web site - the coding's the easy part, don't forget )
January 9th, 2002, 10:20 PM
That is a very good point, and one I hadn't thought of at the hour. You're right, we really don't want to release it before its secure and matured enough.
Any objection I personally would have would be from a purely philosophical standpoint, and in a more theoretical than practical way. I'm not sure how to describe it, but I think this would be "purer" if done as a seperate entity. But yes, you're right, actually attracting vistitors is a site's biggest problem. But, we're not doing this for profit, but for the community, and the community, I think, will find its way.
Is it just me or is it cold in here?
January 10th, 2002, 12:00 AM
Feel about the same as IceMan; If we do something 'with devshed', then it wouldn't really feel like a community project. It would feel like we were 1/2 assed building onto something that already has a reputation (albeit a good one) -- we want to establish our site as unique site to attract an audience not necessarily used to Devshed things.
If people don't feel like visiting our site and feeding on its content, its no skin off my back (as IceMan mentioned). As long as we have community involvement on any level, I'll be happy with it ('level' referring to the amount of feedback/content we get from the community)
January 11th, 2002, 01:04 PM
Whenever you guys are ready to go I can help on the PHP stuff as I've already said. I think we should see if jdk will do this too. He is very good with PHP and would probably be a good writer.
January 11th, 2002, 11:27 PM
my 2 cents -
"develology" is a little too close to "devology" which is registered.
Someone posted saying the name should reflect the artisan approach to developing rather than the "building" approach .. I like this idea.
somone suggested "develovers" which I also like
I think it's important to analyse what other sites are offering (like devshed) and complement them rather than compete.. don't offer the same thing such as tutorials and articles.
when this majordomo list is up can you post the subscribe details here? I think it'd be a better forum to discuss things such as potential names.