December 22nd, 2003, 09:55 AM
Python in the 4th round
The thread on improving python got me wondering, and I wanted all of your input on it:
What this question ISN'T asking is how much easier to use/read/code/improve/fold into a paper pirate hat python is vs. other languages. But day to day do you think python is gaining more serious users vs. Java? vs. Perl? vs. VB? Will it ever repalce them as the business juggernaut? general purpose do it all? Newbie? (all respectively)
December 22nd, 2003, 11:30 AM
Python is picking up new users every day! This being said, sadly i dout its user base will ever be on the same scale as some of the languages pushed into the spot-light by companies like Sun and Microsoft desite there obvious flaws!!!
In some respects i think the PSF need to do the same for Python...
December 22nd, 2003, 01:35 PM
Here in the netherlands we have a tournament programming for students and we got python on the cd as language we could use. Shame I was late and would have never made it in time so i didn't enter.
On that cd it said python was the way to write C free. Also when I searched for a free language it was the first to turn up. I think it might become a lot more popular now, as if you're going to learn programming python shows up somewhere in the docs or in reviews you read (assuming you don't download the first thing you see and not look further)
December 22nd, 2003, 07:10 PM
Yea, it doesn't have the financial backing of M$ and Sun. That's a shame because it really kicks their *** in almost every way.
Although having said that, php has taken over the world, and whatever drove that should drive pythons publicity! But the main reasons for php's incredible rise is its ease of use for web scripting and since web scripting is becomming so popular among non-technical people, it's driven php deeply into the industry due to the sheer massive number of people using it. Python on the other hand ... well .. you need to be somewhat technical to understand classes and design systems in OO and the non-technical user often has problems with that.
I have to say that a python search engine like at php.net would be awesome .. that's one of the best references for any language I've seen and makes php easier to use. That and the packed forums on php everywhere on the web make it easy to get help with learning it quickly and overcomming problems.
The bottum line - python needs another angle other than being the most fun, easy, powerful language there is if its gonna make a dent in the market at a speedy rate. Without it, it'll likely get there, but much slower
edit: haha .. a s s is a banned word in this forum
December 22nd, 2003, 07:34 PM
We'll we all know Python is great for search engines.. anyone whos used google should know its Python Powered!!!
I gotta agree, a search engine for the web based docs would be sweet! Windows users now have the docs CHM format which makes them both easy to search and use so take advantage of them!
December 22nd, 2003, 10:00 PM
December 22nd, 2003, 10:19 PM
Perl use is HUGE ... and won't die anytime in the near future due to legacy issues.
Python is interpreted to improve app development speed. However it more closely resembles compiled languages as far as functionality and usage goes.
Python is actually very fast. It's written in C or C++ so if you use the inbuilt libraries your code will be quite fast. And as far as algorithms go - if they're dodgy, they're slow in any language.
hmmm .. I should take a look at c# then =P sounds good.
December 23rd, 2003, 12:02 AM
Python isn't very fast, but it's fast enough for what it has to do. Don't assume that because Python is written on top of C, it has the speed of C. It's still an interpreted language. If you go into the Lib subdirectory of your Python folder you'll find plenty of Python modules written in, well, Python. Not every module goes straight to C. Is C at the base of the Python foundation? Yes, but there are many layers of abstraction between that and the programmer.
If you haven't seen it already, you should check out the Great Computer Language Shootout at http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/index2.shtml. It's a comparison of the performance, memory usage, etc. of many many different programming languages across many many different benchmark tests. The matrix multiplication test is a good example why compiled languages matter. The execution times of the test are:
using gcc (GNU C Compiler): 0.07 sec
using g++ (GNU C++ Compiler): 0.10 sec
using Python: 27.80 sec
using PHP: 107.28 sec
Now I didn't come here to bash Python. I love it. But I love it for its cross-platform compatibility (including sockets and threads), lightweight GUIs (you hear that Java!?), and ability to call C programs if needed (when speed matters). It's a great language, but I don't love Python for the speed of Python itself. Sorry.
Last edited by theperfectsoup; December 23rd, 2003 at 12:07 AM.
December 23rd, 2003, 12:50 AM
yea ... all valid points
Very interesting site!
wow ... didn't realise how insanely fast C was in comparison. I knew it was fast .. but whoa!
And did't know c++ was that close to C.
And surprisingly Java isn't too bad for many cases.
Intersting site. Thx
December 23rd, 2003, 06:03 AM
With its ability to be embedded in apps I think Python will become THE language for scripting applications. Check out
www.eve-online.com/ or http://osafoundation.org/
WRT to speed - if your app does heavy crunching and sorting then a compiled langauge will always win. But as most Python gurus state - write it in Python first - if you find portions of code too slow then write a lump in C(++). 9 out of 10 times the speed is fine. I have found that just re-writting code to use a more efficient algorithm can often give big speed improvements.
And there is always NUMpy and PIL for specialist stuff.
Perl - would anyone choose to learn it? Assembler is a model of clarity in comparison. Not the originators fault though - it's just grown that way. I agree with yogi - its code base is a problem, it should be our mission to convert any Perl app into human readable form.