Page 2 - http://www.neveredenproductions.com/

what happened to this idea?

i liked it , i think you could make a fairly different menu, which will still be clear and reasonably readable.

becausefor the camera what I had like idea.. what I can do to compencate is to put the camera on an angle... and display the "LCD screen" the 2.5 inch one.. and I would make that into the menu? by sectioning up parts of it? and just making a menu?? but its tuff.. also I'm a Photo company as well? so maybe I will incorperate some digital still cams in there as well..

Everyone see the new XL2 from canon?? DAMN NICE
its in the Camcorders.. MiniDV WOW hot camera that is!

i stand by word,
flash makes your site less accessible, in worse case inaccessible.
try to access a flashsite with a screenread or Lynx,
no go.
the internet is about content, if one can't view the content on your site because of everything is in flash, the site is in my view useless.

one of the main issue why you never should just use flash,
you can find on this list:
Checklist of Checkpoints for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
And if you use applets and scripts (Priority 1)
6.3 Ensure that pages are usable when scripts, applets, or other programmatic objects are turned off or not supported. If this is not possible, provide equivalent information on an alternative accessible page.

with flash you always have to have a extra plugin/program install to be able to view the content,
there can be several reason why this is bad,
like take shockwave that haven't be offered for linux users since it is a closed standard by marcomedia, and they haven't bothered to make a linux port.

so if you use close code like this you might exclude a large group of your target group.





flash is not an webstandard, it is a proprietary system by marcomedia.
and flash isn't free, free as in speak, had flash been an open standard it might have chance to succeed.

so no i do not think that you will be left behind if you ignore flash, the future is Xhtml2.0, CSS3 and SVG.
all open standards.

but not everything is bad with flash, like in flashgames and animation movies, so i think it has it's use.
just not to display normal information, it is too restricted for that.

Okay, lets say I agree with you to an extent about the use of plugins etc. and that some people may not be able to view, and also that Flash is not a replacement for HTML. But it is something that has many uses outside of Games and Animation, Flash interface design is some of the most exciting stuff online - and when you can surf millions upon millions of web pages, how do you get people to stop at your site?!

The truth sometimes is not about how well your site works on all computers, but how well it works on some. For instance, which site is more effective - a site that everyone can get to, but no-one wants to look around, or a site which only some can view, but those who can, stay for a while?

You see my point?

As much as I would love to be able to conform and use W3C standards in every part of my web design career, I cannot - its not a real world model. Imagine going to a client who wants a website (and referring to the W3C standards) having to tell him that actually we need to do 4 websites, to make sure that we can provide access to everyone.

If all websites were compliant to W3C and nothing varied from that, Flash would not exist at all - or javascript, or CSS... in fact the web would be a very boring place indeed. I for one am thankful that designers and developers break the rules on occasion, to keep the web design industry evolving


On a final note: how can you create a site with an decent interface (rollovers) without using either CSS or Javascript (because according to W3C - a site must be view without style sheets applied and javascript) ?? ...honestly want to know the answer to that one

...and what the hell would we do without online forms

I prefer the one size fits all mentality, and i will not to discriminate against any of my users (if i can help it)

thusly i code in xhtml 1.1 and style using css.

but i do think flash, or something of it's nature will be here for a while yet, at least until it is replaced by a suitable open source counter-part.

(i don't think it's appropriate to hijack DBXMe2's thread for this discussion, which has been had so many times it is just silly)

You don't make 4 websites, you make 1,
if you use semantic and structual markup,
then use css to echant the layout, you would have no problem
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/structure/
http://www.camaban.co.uk/semanticwhat.php


if the company is within the US you have to make it accessible
by section508,
and it is your job as a webdesigner to inform your client about this,so yes you have to make it accessible,.
http://www.section508.gov/
http://www.webaim.org/coordination/law/us/508/



i think you have missunderstood the concept of css.
with the use of css you can make a fancy layout for a site,
and still keep it accessible, as long as you use sematical and structual markup. This is the whole idea behind css you
separate content and layout.

take http://wired.com/ it is fully functional without css.

one can still use javascript, you can use it to enchant the surfer-experience but do not make so that you depend on it
that functions don't work if javascript is turned off or not supported
( but you ought to know this,
never relay on clientside for crucial functions of the site.)

so you can still make a fancy rollover, no problem,






you don't need javascript, css etc for forms,
the form should be processed serverside and shouldn't depend on clientside scripting to function,
take lynxs and links, both support forms, and both these browsers are text only, no css, no javascript.

if you don't have lynx, i would recommend that you get it.
if your site don't function in lynx, then you should start over.
lynx should be a must for anyone calling themself a webdesigner.
google search for lynx

and sorry for the thread-jack.

Removed by DBXMe2

Double post once again, new header... Once again.. but this one I'm really happy with what does everyone think?

Simple and I think sweet

triple post, BUMP and now new news..

I got me self a Host that is gona host the video stream for Never Eden productions... the host is Lolercaust

Great host for game servers.. but also for much much more!?!?!

if you guys want more info.. join up at the forums http://www.lolercaust.com/forum/

besides that, I've got a Blog?? does any one have any good template/layouts for blogs that I can use??? I'm using e2Evolutions SUGESTIONS??!?!?!?!

NEW LAYOUT I need crits??

I'm sorry man, but that site is pretty bad. First of all, you want your site to look up to date and modern I'm assuming. Well, with that camcorder in there, that won't happen. It looks like it's from the sixties even if it's not. Second, the whole camcorder thing overall is pretty cheesy. If you could work with flash to make something better.

Also, why the heck are you working on getting up a french version when you haven't even finished the English. That is quite dumb. Get the site up and then promote.

Also, the entire layout as a whole is pretty mediocre. I mean, come on, your've got a gray background with a border and that's it. If I were you, I would start from scratch and rework the entire thing. Get photoshop and learn how to use it- to your advantage this time. Get some custom designs in there that makes your site look good rather than plain boring. I don't know if you plan on going anywhere with the site, but with the current layout, you won't have to worry about doing so. The index2 page is much better, but then again, it's not yours. One good thing you should definitely stick with- the centering.

Just so that you know, there is no such word as "alot" So I suggest that you don't use it. Surfers don't like bad spelling- those who can at least read.

toptemp, there is a difference between being a tough critic, and being rude!

you seem to be looking at his old design, not the new one:
http://www.neveredenproductions.com...s/Screen_NE.jpg

dbxme2, i think the contrast in colour of the menu needs to be improved, the middles section is pretty much grey on grey.

i don't like the idea of the iframe, or scrolling div or whatever it is, i feel they detract from the usability, most especially if it's an iframe.

i think i agree with toptemp in that it is visually unexciting and could do with jazzing up, i don't agree that photoshop is the way to do i though. i would suggest using simple css.

I usualy dont defend my self for crits.. cause they usualy right..

Reason why to work on french right away?? well maybe because I'm in Quebec.. which is in Canada.. Quebec.. is 99.9% french.. so its kinda like people here will have a tough time to understand the english on the site.. theirfor I got write up SOME french as so my clients dont get pissed..

and btw that camera that ur looking at isnt from the 70' nor the 60' its a Canon GL2 something you wouldnt know to appriciate because ur not into film?

@Three: the buttons on the nav bar are mouse overed so they highlight baby blue seethroughish.. so u can read what is written... but only when u pass over practicly..
ne sugestions to color co ordinate?